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Around SBN: What If This Is It For The Celtics? End Of An Era Looming

How Much Longer???

I have had enough, it's time for Darcy to go. Though I feel others won't feel the same (Ogre39666 and and . lassathrax) So I ask others? When is it time for a new GM? A year ,or 5 years with no playoffs? 2 years, 5 years? When would YOU PULL the trigger? Darcy has had some good years here and there, but the team is broken, changes need to be made. i've had enough of this GM, so tell me when is it time to make a change at GM?

This is a fanpost written by a member of the community, it doesn't necessarily express the views or opinions of Die by the Blade

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I agree.

Every situation is different. To me, though, I give Darcy at least one more season to continue to build. He has actually been trying to right this ship and turn around this core of players from a “soft” small team to a big, bad team for years. It started with Myers, and continued in the draft with Foligno, Kassian, Tropp, McNabb, Armia, etc. Darcy has been drafting and collecting these monsters to compete in the new NHL. To me, Darcy has put a good team on paper this year, which is all he can do. Lindy takes that team and tries to make something out of it. IMO, Lindy goes after this season, but I give Darcy next season and see how things go. Give him more than one off-season of to-the-cap spending to put together a team. You don’t build a Cup contender overnight. Give him some more time, I say.

"Starting today, the Buffalo Sabres' reason for existence will be to win a Stanley Cup" - Terry Pegula

by willgarr15 on Jan 24, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I have to agree that Darcy is doing a good job given his constraints (player availability, draft positioning, trade availability, and previous financial considerations). Lindy was doing a good job up until this season, so if he can’t sort shit out by the offseason I’d be OK with replacing him, but it definitely depends on who the replacement is.

by lassathrax on Jan 24, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Larry Quinn fired Muckler because he was on the wrong side of the Hasek/Nolan drama when the Rigases came in

The firing of Muckler upset me greatly, because the team was on the rise, and that was some of the most entertaining hockey the Sabres played in my lifetime. Goals by the tons.

Girls use hair spray, Men don't.

DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!

Don't be a Paully!

by The Buffalo Kid on Jan 24, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

End of ther year

While I understand why Pegula didn’t replace Darcy, Lindy or both as soon as he assumed ownership, I hope he has gotten his feet wet enough to do a real assesment of his staff. Darcy has had enough time here and has done a pretty good job but someone has to be responsible for this team’s lack of sucess over the last 5 years.
Darcy’s over love of his players, his refusal to lose even a little in a trade, and worst of all IMO if what Burke said was true his ability to even trade with some of the other GM’s are the reasons why I would be seeking his replacement.

Rookies are like teabags...you don't know what you're gonna get until you put them in hot water. -Harry Neale

by weswed51 on Jan 25, 2012 7:54 PM EST reply actions  

also...

Has there ever been a GM, coach or manager in any pro sport that has held his job for so long without any championship? Just wondering….

Rookies are like teabags...you don't know what you're gonna get until you put them in hot water. -Harry Neale

by weswed51 on Jan 25, 2012 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Barry Trotz in Nashville is right on Lindy’s heels for longest tenure.
How bout Jerry Sloan who coached the Utah Jazz from 1988 to 2011
Andy Reid has been the coach of the Eagles since 1999.

"If we needed any more motivation to win a Cup sooner than later, we've got one now," Black said. "I really want to listen to the game that RJ calls when he finally gets to shout out, 'Buffalo wins the Stanley Cup.'"
"Do it or Die Trying."

by FloridaBuffalo on Jan 25, 2012 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Billy Beane has been the General Manager of the A’s since 1997.

I’m sure there are plenty of examples, I’m just going off of the top of my head.

"If we needed any more motivation to win a Cup sooner than later, we've got one now," Black said. "I really want to listen to the game that RJ calls when he finally gets to shout out, 'Buffalo wins the Stanley Cup.'"
"Do it or Die Trying."

by FloridaBuffalo on Jan 25, 2012 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I've compared him to Beane before.

Innovative, sometimes controversial, ripped off enough GM’s that the others are hesitant to deal with them, did their best work with limited payrolls, and have job security.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place

by Ogre39666 on Jan 25, 2012 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

thx

didnt want to look it up but i knew someone would have some. so there is about 1 in every major sport… and Reid was in like 5 NFC champ games, I dont follow baseball or basketball much so i dont know if Sloan or Beane won much but Trotz is comparable to Lindy.

Rookies are like teabags...you don't know what you're gonna get until you put them in hot water. -Harry Neale

by weswed51 on Jan 26, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

If we had Trotz as coach and Poile as GM, people would be complaining that we’ve never won the Western Conference Championship or the Central Division. “What other coach in the NHL gets such leeway?” Well folks, here’s a good example.

by Philaster on Jan 26, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Jeff Fisher as head coach of Houston/ Tennessee from 1994-2010. Never won a championship but got close a few times. His teams were always good (until they weren’t). I think he’s a good parallel.

by Philaster on Jan 25, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

.
his refusal to lose even a little in a trade

Why would you want a GM who is willing to pull the trigger of a deal were they get the short end of the stick?

Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place

by Ogre39666 on Jan 25, 2012 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Because more than talent wins hockey games...

If i could trade a guy on my roster who has more goal scoring potential(stafford or roy) for a guy who could be a real leader on my team( Ladd, Koivu) who would represent a loss in potential or talent but bring a needed element to my roster… It won’t happen with " I cried when I traded Mikka for a 2nd rounder" Darcy. GM’s have to believe that any deal with Darcy is them getting screwed as that has only happened in the past. Sometimes a give in one area is a gain in another….

Rookies are like teabags...you don't know what you're gonna get until you put them in hot water. -Harry Neale

by weswed51 on Jan 27, 2012 2:42 AM EST up reply actions  

And with bigger pockets...

I could always dangle more future for the guy who wins games now. Just like all the major markets can do…and do….

Rookies are like teabags...you don't know what you're gonna get until you put them in hot water. -Harry Neale

by weswed51 on Jan 27, 2012 2:45 AM EST up reply actions  

If a trade is simply giving some in one area to gain in another

then he’s not losing the trade. You said you wanted him to make trades even if he’s the loser in the deal. Good GM’s don’t make trades when it’s obvious they are the losers.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place

by Ogre39666 on Jan 27, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Darcy has had enough time here and has done a pretty good job but someone has to be responsible for this team’s lack of sucess over the last 5 years.

I want Darcy gone so bad, I hope Pegula has the guts to pull the trigger.

Girls use hair spray, Men don't.

DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!

Don't be a Paully!

by The Buffalo Kid on Jan 26, 2012 5:20 AM EST up reply actions  

15 years, 5 without a playoff win.

Nuff Said.

Girls use hair spray, Men don't.

DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!

Don't be a Paully!

by The Buffalo Kid on Jan 26, 2012 5:24 AM EST up reply actions  

If it was my decision.

Darcy would have been thrown under the bus yesterday.

Girls use hair spray, Men don't.

DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!

Don't be a Paully!

by The Buffalo Kid on Jan 28, 2012 12:58 AM EST up reply actions  

But I would settle for tomorrow.

Just fire this loser ASAP.

Girls use hair spray, Men don't.

DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!

Don't be a Paully!

by The Buffalo Kid on Jan 28, 2012 1:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Darcy has had 15 years.

5 Without a playoff series win.

Girls use hair spray, Men don't.

DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!

Don't be a Paully!

by The Buffalo Kid on Jan 28, 2012 1:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I mean cmon?

How much longer should he get??????

Girls use hair spray, Men don't.

DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!

Don't be a Paully!

by The Buffalo Kid on Jan 28, 2012 1:09 AM EST up reply actions  

How many posts does it take

To make your point?

Answer: 1

Please calm down.

by lassathrax on Jan 28, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I bet Nashville would appreciate one Stanley Cup Run, a few Divisional Championships mixed in their 14 years. I don’t see them panicking.
Darcy effectively doubled the bannerage in the arena since he took over. You realize that right?

by Philaster on Jan 29, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I Think Nashville...

Or rather the fans of the Preds – whoever they are (in the bottom third in attendance this year, but up from the bottom five!) – would like some ownership/franchise stability. They were terrible for a decade, then they became the ‘franchise du jour’ when rumors of a relocation started (Hamilton, KC, etc) around the league, and one owner wanted to sell to Balsillie, another got tossed in jail for fraud, and now a third interest is getting in. Poile and Trotz are probably happy they aren’t the focus.

Nashville is not BFLO – they have little tradition, have had little/no success, and probably have little commitment to winning a Cup – seems like survival is their primary goal (they needed a local business sponsored pep rally to sell tickets!) these days. Nor do they have an owner who has publicly stated that Cup commitment.

Bannerage? Great. Can’t say that inspires confidence in the average fan. ‘Hey look, another Tim Horton’s sign!’ ‘Great. We still suck.’

I’m not pushing for a total overhaul of the team, but I wouldn’t be surprised or disappointed either. And comparing the Sabres’ management situation to ONE other team in a 30 team league is not exactly justification for keeping them around. I’m sure if the Habs or Wings told their fans ‘Hey, we’re in a better situation than Nashville!’ it would go over like a ton of bricks. Or baguettes.

by T McGee on Jan 29, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It’s a good enough argument, but like Nashville, Buffalo was in a bit of a mess with little ownership or stability until now. But yeah, it’s not a traditional hockey market.
By bannerage I don’t mean advertising. Prior to Regier taking over, the Sabres had won the Prince of Wales twice (once because they had the best record in the Prince of Wales) and the Adams Division three times. Under Regier, they’ve won the Eastern Conference Championship once and the Northeast Division twice. Has he done enough lately? Then maybe.
I do think it’s unfair to hold Buffalo up to the standard of two original six teams. As crazy as Buffalo is about hockey, it’s not either of those places.

by Philaster on Jan 29, 2012 7:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah.

Misunderstood your use of ‘bannerage’. Oops!

IMO they’ve been stable since the get-go, excluding the Rigas disaster and immediate fallout.

I will agree that despite the French Connection, Lafontaine/Moguls/Hawerchuk, and all those tremendous rivalry playoff series in the 70’s and late 80’s, BFLO did not have any tremendous successes that would overshadow Darcy’s tenure. They are, as you say, almost identical. What I will add though, is that for the first year of ‘Darcy Unchained!’, we’ve seen a cosmic level deflation in terms of production per dollar. Maybe Darcy fits best in a market with financial constraints, like a Nashville? At this (early) point, I’m skeptical Darcy can play with the big boys when the dollars are available to him. He’s done a damn fine job of stocking the cupboard with young talent.

Perhaps its unfair, but as a Sabres fan, in a town that thirsts for a winner, they should definitely be aspiring to (and held to) that same standard. They have the infrastructure in place, they have an admirable tradition with some great players (Hasek, Perrault, Housley, LaFontaine, etc) and some level of success, and they have a passionate fan base with a lot of interest from the (local) general public. If not one of the Original Six, then at worst equate them with Philly. And honestly, I can’t see Flyers fans being patient for 15 years without a Cup. Even Bobby Clarke got forced out despite reaching 3 Cup Finals and being a franchise legend. And that was after 10 years or so.

by T McGee on Jan 30, 2012 11:18 AM EST reply actions  

I don’t think you can compare with Philly either.
Look, Pegula has a lot of money and that’s not going to be an excuse. But the Sabres will never have the cache that say, Boston and Philly have because Buffalo is a small market (albeit one with a huge pocketbook now). Philly’s cache is also heavily derived from media influence since they’re basically owned by Comcast. Buffalo just doesn’t have that. Some of the tradition is the same, but the Broad Street Bullies won championships while the French Connection never did.
How much all of this should matter is open for debate, and I for one agree that it shouldn’t matter. But to the NHL it does.
I also agree that Regier might have been at his best under the tightest reins (when the NHL was controlling the team). That is when he basically built the 05-06 team. I’m not ready to give up on him yet with just one year of unlimited resources.

by Philaster on Jan 30, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

BUT HOW MUCH LONGER SHOULD HE GET???

15 YEARS AND NO CUPS!!!?
SHOULD HE BE GM FOR LIFE?!!?? IS THAT WHAT YOU’RE SAYING????

I MEAN C’MON MAN! TAKE OFF YOUR BLINDERS!!! REGIER IS A FAILURE!!!!!

WHAT ARE YOU HIS BROTHER OR SOMETHING??????

P.S. STOP WEARING HAIRSPRAY IF UR A MAN, HAIRSPRAY IS NOT FOR MEN1

by lassathrax on Jan 30, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

You spelled “Regier” correctly, so I have to take off a point for that. Otherwise, genius.

by Philaster on Jan 30, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

P.S. STOP WEARING HAIRSPRAY IF UR A MAN, HAIRSPRAY IS NOT FOR MEN1

Well it’s not…..Styling Mousse too. UGH!

Girls use hair spray, Men don't.

DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!

Don't be a Paully!

by The Buffalo Kid on Feb 1, 2012 3:43 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Ah well...

I guess we’ll agree to disagree on what kind of expectations the fans should have of the organization, but I certainly see your point on championships.

Not saying Darcy is a total failure – the Regehr move was poetry – but I think the idea behind the Leino move, whoever was responsible (Ruff, Regier, Pegular, Mike Robitaille, whoever) is proving to be an abject failure. Leino has been working hard of late (finally), and trying to make things happen, but still, the transition to C that wasn’t, his complaining about it after signing the big deal, and then just moving him back without much fanfare to the W still gets under my skin. If it was Darcy, then judging by the way the media, locally and nationally, is treating it, that move alone could be his ticket out of town.

Like some of the core players, I don’t know if I want to part with ‘Darcy Unchained!’ just yet, but I’m also afraid to hang on to him too long. If we haven’t already.

by T McGee on Jan 31, 2012 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps.

But signing a player for what was generally regarded as an exorbitant contract relative to past performance, suggesting said player as the solution as a top line centerman, and then giving up on the plan after a couple weeks with the player whining about not wanting to play the position that, in large part, granted him said enormous (unwarranted) contract, all covered thoroughly (and mockingly) by the local and national media could put enough public pressure on Sabres management by an already dissatisfied fan base to call for heads to roll.

Whew. That was a long run-on sentence.

Of course, Leino’s generally wretched performance post-contract/return to wing doesn’t help. He does have that nice scruff going for him, I guess.

Is it the only reason Regier could get dumped? No, probably not. Could it be the last straw? From a fan’s perspective, I sure think so. And I wouldn’t be surprised to see a LOT of pressure from fans/media in the off-season to do just that (especially if they miss the playoffs).

by T McGee on Feb 1, 2012 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Leino will be fine

He’s a good player. He might be overpaid for what he is, but don’t make him out to be Scott Gomez.
Darcy’s plan to have him play Center was always retarded though. He took a chance on trying to make him into more of a C like he did with Danny Briere.

by Philaster on Feb 1, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I Don't Doubt It -

He can’t possibly be as bad as he was in Nov/Dec. I’ve watched him on/off since his Detroit days, and he certainly has some talent. And he comes up bigger in the playoffs. Agreed on the retarded part. But I wonder who’s idea that really was…Darcy, Ruff, or someone else? Regardless, that’s what bothers me…the plan, the payout for the plan, and the abandonment of the plan. Not so much Leino himself – although you can’t deny he’s underperformed even if we gave him a $2 million/year deal – but the whole concept behind it that led to the C’f**k as it played out.

“Hey, let’s make Datsyuk a RW!” “But…he’s a C!” “Fah. He played some RW in Bantam! He’ll be great!” “Uhm…OK.” “And, we’re going to give him a 7 year, 75 million deal!” “Wait…but he’s in his mid-30’s…what?”

by T McGee on Feb 1, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Darcy's not dumb

He knows the team needs a C. I think at some point he figured they were realistically out of the Brad Richards derby (if in fact they were ever even in it, which I doubt). Since there wasn’t really anyone else available via free agency and since there would have been riots if they had resigned Tim Connolly for the money he was looking for, Leino was it. And sadly they had to overpay him. I don’t think it was so much a plan as much as something they took a chance on that hasn’t worked out how they hoped in the very short term. I think it’s evidence of a real attempt to improve this team.
We have gotten better at drafting centers. Whether or not there’s that much reason to be confident in Kevin Sundher or Daniel Catenacci is another matter.

by Philaster on Feb 1, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I Hope So...

Agree on the Richards race. And they couldn’t resign Cons. IMO it was a bad move – I liked Leino for what he was, but to overpay for ostensibly something he wasn’t seems either desperate or arrogant.

I’d be very happy if either of those guys turn out to be something. Have a bad feeling Cat will be a Todd Marchant type of player rather than a speedy Top 6 playmaker. But would love to be proven wrong.

by T McGee on Feb 1, 2012 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d be okay with Todd Marchant, but I have a soft spot for him because we share an alma mater (and it isn’t Clarkson).

by Philaster on Feb 2, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

.
Could it be the last straw?

See this is what I don’t get. Even if you (IMO foolishly) write off the Leino signing as a horrible one after just one year out of six, what are these numerous other straws that demand a change be made?

Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place

by Ogre39666 on Feb 1, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Foolishly?

I guess. Maybe Leino will somehow turn it around, and begin potting 25-30 goals and racking up 70 point seasons. Maybe it will even happen at center. And maybe he’ll justify that extremely hefty contract. Stranger things have happened. But I am skeptical, and I’m not sure how you couldn’t be simply be judging Leino on his career thus far. Not to mention, he was signed as the ‘solution’ to the Top 6 center problem. Which has to this point been – I don’t think anyone can argue – a colossal failure. So, if you believe Leino can live up to his deal and can perform like a Top 6 forward (I won’t even say center) when the entire team is healthy, then sir I applaud you for your optimism and your future vision. I for one would love to see it, because I really want to the Sabres to live up to the whole Pegula promise and be a consistent contender.

As for the other straws, well, here’s a few just off the top of my head: Connolly’s extension. Stafford’s extension. The lack of meaningful moves pre-or at deadline during the years when the Sabres actually had a chance to advance into the later rounds (or actually did). Dominic Moore, Steve Bernier and Nolan Pratt don’t quite do it for me. Inability or unwillingness to find an adequate back-up goalie to Miller during his heyday, Giving up on Briere before contract negotiations even began. I’d like to add Drury to that list, but I understand the Sabres made an offer and were rebuffed. But couldn’t they have negotiated during the season? Or is that one of Darcy’s unwritten rules?

Look, he’s not the devil, and he’s not the sole cause of this season’s debacle. I don’t think he should be run out of town on a rail. He’s found some very nice talent in the draft, he’s made some positive moves – like I said, I thought the Regehr move was genius and still do – and he’s parted company with some guys when they’d exhausted their time here (although guys like Connolly and Afinogenov should probably have been dumped far earlier). And in some cases, he’s been handcuffed by public opinion (I still think he overpaid for Vanek, but he really would have been run out of town on a rail if he didn’t).

What I don’t get is the folks who look down on those who think change might be necessary in any capacity. Hey, if you want to defend Darcy, Lindy, et al go for it. I think they’ve done a damn good job for a majority of the time they’ve been here. But there comes a time when you have to move on from a tired regime. Are these guys tired? Is now the time? I don’t know – I’m just some guy who posts on a hockey blog. But judging by pre-season expectations, dollars spent, and performance, it certainly seems that way right now.

by T McGee on Feb 1, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

RE: Leino

I’m not saying he can, but I’m not ready to say he can’t. This was a player who had a big jump in his performance last year. Now some of that was because of Briere, but it showed that the guy can play. And with a $4M cap-hit, he doesn’t have to play amazingly to be worth it.

RE: Those past straws
Connolly: Everyone loves to hate on him but he was a pretty good player here. And again, it wasn’t a huge contract at only a $4.5M cap-hit and he did produce (107 points in 141 games during the extension). Plus, I don’t know exactly who was available, but the center market is always thin a even if there were top-flight FA’s, they were most likely out of our budget.
Lack of moves at the deadline: Kind of hard to do anything when he always was told “No” by ownership.
The moves that were made being less then game-changers: See above.
Briere and Drury: Briere acted like a baby because we gave priority to Drury. Drury was set on going to the Rangers (in what turned out to be a horrible contract by the way). And the no in-season negotiation rule was a Larry Quin idea.

What I don’t get is the perception that we need to “move on” from a “tired” regime that has “done a damn good job” the majority of the time because of one disappointing year. If a GM is good, he’s good. Why would you want him removed? If a coach is good, he’s good. Why would you want him removed? Change for the sake of change is never a good idea.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place

by Ogre39666 on Feb 1, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey Man -

No harm no foul. We’ll agree to disagree. I admire your willingness to defend the current regime. It is easy just to say "I want a change’ because you want something different. But sometimes, that’s what’s needed. IMO, now might be the time for BFLO.

It is easy to hate on Connolly b/c he gave us plenty of reasons to. But the question is more about Darcy. So, as the cap has gone up over the past two years, let’s say essentially Cons got $5 mill for his trouble. On a cash-strapped team. For most of his Sabres career, he was invisible in the playoffs, injured for the equivalent of 2 entire seasons of the previous three before the extension…why do it? Yes, UFA C’s are always thin, but the Sabres didn’t mind going in to this year without 2 Top 6 centers. Why not then? They had Roy and Hecht then as well.

I did say majority – so 51% (OK, that’s facetious, but…) of the time, yes, they’ve done a damn fine job. But I personally have been disappointed for most of the last 3-4 years. This year is just the icing (or whatever the opposite of icing is). So this didn’t just dawn on me (or a lot of fans). But they raised the bar in the off-season (and the first few games) so much so that I could see a Top 4 finish. So the disappointment is sharper, I guess, this year.

by T McGee on Feb 1, 2012 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

But if you and others had visions of top-4 finishes dancing in your head at the start of the year.

how can you blame Darcy for what no one saw coming? It would be different if they were all talk, but they backed up their talk by trading for a legit #1 defensive defensemen and signing the #1 defensemen available. No one saw everyone on the team not named Pominville and Vanek have career-worst years.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place

by Ogre39666 on Feb 1, 2012 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

This, x1000

You can’t blame Darcy for his inability to predict the unpredictable. If you insist on having a singular scapegoat, you’d be better off blaming Ruff for failing to turn things around sooner (although even that was arguably/partially out of his control).

by lassathrax on Feb 2, 2012 8:30 AM EST up reply actions  

This

+1

Rookies are like teabags...you don't know what you're gonna get until you put them in hot water. -Harry Neale

by weswed51 on Feb 2, 2012 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

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