The "Jaeger" Plan
by Der Jaeger on Jul 4, 2011 1:03 PM EDT
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PrintThis is my first fanpost on DBTB. Some of you may know me from Buffalo Rumblings, but with the NFL in neutral and the NHL in full-stride, I put some thoughts to Terry Pegula's Sabres. I'm as big of a Sabres fan as a Bills fan, but won't pretend to know as much. That said, here's how I would progress from Darcy Regier's solid off-season.
Resign UFA's.
Sekera: 3-4 year deal, $2.3 per season.
Gragnani: 2-3 year deal, $750,000 per season.
Enroth: 2-3 year deal, $1,000,000 per season.
Weber: 2-3 year deal, $750,000 per season.
The Anticipated First Line Center Trade
There's lots of rumors about a Stamkos trade, or the Sabres being interested in various centers (Brassard, Spezza, Stastny). Only one of these options makes sense. The rest of the options are either bad fits for the team, or too high of a cost.
Stamkos rumors are all over other hockey blogs, and for good reason. He's a first line center for the next decade. He's also somewhat of a bad fit for the Sabres. Stamkos isn't a playmaking center. He's more of a Jeremy Roenick type of a center that's a goal scorer first. Don't get me wrong: if Buffalo swings a deal for Stamkos, I'm the first one cheering. But ideally, if Regier is giving up a boatload of talent for a first line center, that center needs to be feeding Thomas Vanek. So cross Stamkos off, for now.
Spezza is a good fit in terms of his playmaking. He's big enough to battle in the playoffs. He'll also cost a ton since Ottawa is a divisional foe. I'd rather not play against 3 to 4 ex-Sabres every year, particularly if Buffalo is trading talent that will develop. Pass. Cost is too high.
Buffalo has a self-imposed three year window to win the Cup. Brassard's youth and lack of physical play aren't exactly great fits. Leaving...
Paul Stastny. Stastny is good sized, playmkaing center. He flourished with Stewart in Colorado, with Stewart as the finisher. A Vanek-Stastny combo would give Buffalo a deadly first line. Now the trick is how to pry Stastny away from the Avs. Stastny and the Avs management aren't best friend, but the Avs don't need to make a move. So the deal is going to hurt from a Buffalo perspective.
Buffalo trades:
Derek Roy, Tyler Ennis, Jochen Hecht, and draft choice
Colorado trades:
Paul Stastny
Why this works: Colorado doesn't need to give up Stastny, so there's a reasonable expectation that Colorado would want a top 6 center back in return. This gives them Duchesne and Roy as 1-2 centers, which is pretty good. Colorado needs salary to reach the cap floor. While Roy's contract is a good one at $4M per year, Stastny is making $6.6M per year, which is why Hecht is added to the deal. Ennis is in the final year of his ELC, and his pay raise will help the Avs reach the cap floor in 2012-13. Overall, Colorado maintains 1-2 center combo, adds salary, and adds a dynamic young winger.
Buffalo takes a hit with dealing Ennis. Adding a legitimate #1 center like Stastny is the type of deal where trading Ennis is acceptable. With forwards like Adam, Kassian, and Foligno due to make the team sometime in the next 1-2 seasons, Buffalo can potentially replace Ennis' scoring and skating with a physical grinder. Additionally, it seems that the league is shifting to a more physical style of play; this is evident after watching the Bruins pound their way to the Cup. Buffalo can't afford to have too many mites on the team. Buffalo adds a good sized first line center while trading two mites.
Buffalo's Opening Day Roster
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Thomas Vanek ($7.142m) / Paul Stastny ($6.600m) / Jason Pominville ($5.300m)
Nathan Gerbe ($1.433m) / Ville Leino ($4.500m) / Drew Stafford ($4.000m)
Chris Drury ($1.500m) / Paul Gaustad ($2.300m) / Brad Boyes ($4.000m)
Cody McCormick ($1.200m) / Luke Adam ($0.875m) / Patrick Kaleta ($0.907m)
DEFENSEMEN
Robyn Regehr ($4.020m) / Tyler Myers ($1.300m)
Jordan Leopold ($3.000m) / Christian Ehrhoff ($4.000m)
Andrej Sekera ($2.300m) / Mike Weber ($0.750m)
Marc-Andre Gragnani ($0.750m)
GOALTENDERS
Ryan Miller ($6.250m) / Jhonas Enroth ($1.000m)
BUYOUTS: Tim Kennedy ($0.166m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,295,357; BONUSES: $562,500
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $1,004,643
Buffalo signs Chris Drury to a Grier-esque contract to add leadership to the roster. Morrisonn is sent to Rochester. Kotalik takes Pominville's spot if/while he's on LTIR, and returns to the Amerks once Pominville is healthy. This leaves Buffalo a tad bit short on forwards, with Kassian and Foligno being the first call-ups. Schiestel is the first defense call-up.
Why this works for the Sabres: Buffalo maintains its overall mobility while adding size and talent. The Sabres lose two of its best skaters in Roy and Ennis. Stastny is a good skater, and while Leino isn't as straight line fast, he's shifty. Adam and Drury aren't terrific skaters for different reasons, but Adam bring size and Drury leadership. For the first time in years, Buffalo won't have a center under 6-foot-tall. Add in Buffalo's very mobile defense and Robyn Regehr, and the team is as mobile are far bigger.
The Projected Deadline Deal
Unless Ville Leino pans out a la Daniel Briere, Buffalo is still without a true #2 center. While Regier addressed the position in the draft, the team could use a steady #2 option while those players develop. Paul Gaustad is a pending free agent, further adding to the need.
Buffalo trades:
Andrej Sekera, Brad Boyes, Calgary's 2nd round pick
Pittsburgh trades:
Why this works: Pittsburgh is in a position to deal a center once Crosby and Malkin are healthy. The Pens could use a left handed shot from the point, and a right handed shot at right wing to play with Crosby. Sekera is relatively cheap and still has upside. A Crosby-Boyes combination could be deadly (really, anyone playing with Crosby). Boyes represents a significant upgrade over the wingers Ray Shero has been acquiring to play with Crosby. Plus, if Boyes doesn't work out, he's a free agent.
Note: if Pominville comes off LTIR strong, he could be inserted for Boyes. Buffalo would be in better shape long-term with Pominville going to Pittsburgh instead of Boyes. Boyes' expiring $4M contract would then be used to resign Tyler Myers.
Buffalo's Trade Deadline-into the Playoffs Roster
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Thomas Vanek ($7.142m) / Paul Stastny ($6.600m) / Jason Pominville ($5.300m) or Boyes @$4M
Ville Leino ($4.500m) / Jordan Staal ($4.000m) / Drew Stafford ($4.000m)
Nathan Gerbe ($1.433m) / Paul Gaustad ($2.300m) / Chris Drury ($1.500m)
Cody McCormick ($1.200m) / Luke Adam ($0.875m) / Patrick Kaleta ($0.907m)
/ / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
DEFENSEMEN
Robyn Regehr ($4.020m) / Tyler Myers ($1.300m)
Jordan Leopold ($3.000m) / Christian Ehrhoff ($4.000m)
Marc-Andre Gragnani ($0.750m) / Mike Weber ($0.750m)
Drew Schiestel ($0.750m)
GOALTENDERS
Ryan Miller ($6.250m) / Jhonas Enroth ($1.000m)
BUYOUTS: Tim Kennedy ($0.166m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,615,357; BONUSES: $637,500
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $1,684,643
Buffalo calls up Schiestel and Kassian for the playoffs.
Why this works for the Sabres: Buffalo has the makings of two very solid top lines for the foreseeable future. Stastny and Vanek are great compliments. Staal and Leino have offensive upside, with Staal also playing good defense. Pominville/Boyes and Stafford round out a good top 6. Drury slides to the right side, reuniting the Gaustad-Gerbe combo. Adam, Kaleta, McCormick and Kassian create a tough, physical 4th line. The defense remains fairly intact, with Gragnani taking Sekera's icetime. Buffalo maintains size, especially at center, a mobile defense, and still has great goaltending.
Buffalo enters the 2012 off-season with Myers as the major resigning target, and may have to move Pominville to make it happen (unless he's traded to the Pens; then Boyes isn't resigned). Gaustad may also have to be let go, but Adam may be able to fill his role, and potentially more. Beyond that, Buffalo is under the cap with an elite roster for the 2012-13 season.
Thoughts?
This is a fanpost written by a member of the community, it doesn't necessarily express the views or opinions of Die by the Blade
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Comments
Ugggh
IMO trading Roy for Statsny is the equivalent of taking 1 step forward, one step back. I’m also not a fan of bringing Drury back.
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
by mob16151 on Jul 4, 2011 1:17 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
Yes I agree.
Roy is an awesome trading piece, but if we are too acquire a top two-line center we need to keep him so that we have two solid lines instead of one. Therefore, I would much rather move D and wingers to acquire a center than move our current top center. The only way I would be trading Roy to get a center is to get an elite center; since I could not see a trade like that being made, I would rather see us send Ennis, Boyes, Hecht, and pick to get a Stastny than include Roy in that deal. In my opinion, your initial and my proposed trades are overpays for Stastny, but I think that is what it would take to land a top 30 center in this league.
To me, landing Stastny probably will not happen since Colorado is well below the cap floor and in need of his solid play. Yes, they do have Duchene who is a great player, but teams in the NHL who want to be contenders should have multiple offensive centers. I think this is similar to having multiple solid running backs in the NFL…all the good teams usually have a two back system, not just a single workhorse that runs for 40-50 carries a game.
Therefore, I would much rather acquire a center who ranges from 45-60 points a season than go out and find a 70-80 point center, who I think would cost a lot more in this off-season. The one player I have my eye on is Jarret Stoll of LA; he averages around 45 points a season, yet is a solid center who can win faceoffs and is a stud on the shootout. I think he could be available since he is pushed to more of a third line duty with the acquisition Mike Richards and because of the lack of winger depth that LA has. To acquire Stoll, I would send any of our RWs not named Pominville or Stafford and an additional draft pick and/or a prospect. Fielding that type of lineup would yield our top three centers as Roy/Leino/Stoll, where Stoll and Leino could be flip flopped. While the point production on top two lines would not be as high, it would give us three really solid
1-2-3 punch of offense on our team.
"We’re gonna win the Stanley Cup. Then, you know what, we’re gonna win it again,"
-Terry Pegula
Plus trading Ennis is the same deal is like taking another step back.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
by Ogre39666 on Jul 5, 2011 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not so
Stastny is a better passer and playmaker. Roy is good, but Stastny is better. Stastny unlocks Vanek, and hopefully he nears 50 goals. That’s the crux of the deal.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
by Der Jaeger on Jul 5, 2011 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I get not liking Roy. He certainly has his warts, as do all players. But A. He plays a position of extreme need on the Sabres B. He has consistently produced at that position C. His contract is incredibly favorable to the organization. If you want Stastny, get him without trading Roy. Then play Vanek on Stastny’s line.
That sounds nice
But Roy’s contract shouldn’t be his selling point, nor should the position he plays. The point of the first trade was that Regier wasn’t going to get away with highway robbery acquiring Spezza, Stastny, Stamkos, etc. If the trade is realistic, it’s going to hurt.
Colorado is going to want something back for Stastny. Giving Ennis, Hecht, and Sekera isn’t going to cut it. They’re going to want a 2nd line center to pair with Duchense.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
by Der Jaeger on Jul 5, 2011 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree that’s probably what Colorado would want, but that’s the best reason NOT to do this trade at all. I’d be comfortable giving up what you say for Stamkos. Stastny isn’t a good enough player to make this unfavorable a trade for. And it’s not close.
The most realistic trade proposals are the ones that both sides don’t want to do. I bet most Colorado fans balk as well.
Regier can’t mind trick his way to a first line center. It works for lesser players (Briere, even Regehr).
Stastny isn’t Stamkos, I agree. But he’s a legit 1st line center, something that’s debatable about Roy.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
by Der Jaeger on Jul 5, 2011 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Colorado should take your deal in a heartbeat. It wouldn’t be nearly as painful for them as it would be for the Sabres, unless the Colorado fans ridiculously overvalue Stastny vis a vis Roy as you seem to. I think they’d care way more about Duchene. And I agree with whoever below that I would never pay Sekera as much money as you want to. He’d be a piece I’d look to move.
This is true
After living here for the last 12 months I can tell you a few things.
A) Hockey is a very, very, very distant 3rd to the Bronco’s and Rockies.
B) Most people wouldn’t be able to tell you who Duchene or Statsny are.
C) The few fans I have met all seem to want out of Statsny’s contract. They don’t see him as a top flight C and they think he is way overpaid and that Duchene needs him gone in order to flourish.
D) They were PISSED about the Stewart deal and as such would much rather have an elite winger coming back than another C.
You forgot:
A.) Hockey is a distant 4th including the Nuggets, especially to the owner (Kroenke’s son) who is far more a basketball fan than hockey.
I lived in Colorado for about 12 years, five of which were pre Avalanche,
and while it’s true, no team will ever usurp the Broncos as the #1 team in fan’s hearts, the #2 team is always cyclical depending on that team’s performance. The Avalanche were that 2nd team for quite a while and nobody gave a shit about the Rockies or the Nuggets because they were both crap for so long. As the Rockies have been slowly getting better and the Nuggets have made some noise in the West, the Avalanche didn’t really get their legs under them post-lockout. Hence the strip down, rebuild and subsequent hard to watch teams.
Minus the Broncos, a whole lot of Colorado sports fans are pretty fickle and will lose interest in a team if they’re not doing well, which is why you have the cycle of the #2 team in Denver.
Anyways, I think most Colorado fans feel pretty good about center and puck moving defenseman depth with the prospects coming up through the system. Wing/GK depth is a problem though. Not sure how much it matters though, they’re still a couple of years away from doing anything of note and they’ve got a ton of expiring contracts next offseason. They may be waiting for next year’s FA class to go crazy. It’s hard to tell with their GM. He’s done some good things but you’re also guaranteed to get at least one ‘what the fuck’ moment from him every year.
That rug really tied the room together...
by Streams Of Whiskey on Jul 5, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
NO NO NO
Dammit what don’t people understand?!?!?!
Roy is a better player than Statsny, at a cheaper cap hit. AND, trading away one center for another center FIXES NOTHING!
by JSCoope on Jul 4, 2011 1:38 PM EDT reply actions 10 recs
Rec’d
"If we needed any more motivation to win a Cup sooner than later, we've got one now," Black said. "I really want to listen to the game that RJ calls when he finally gets to shout out, 'Buffalo wins the Stanley Cup.'"
by FloridaBuffalo on Jul 4, 2011 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed entirely
No way Regier does something this dumb.
Frankly, I wouldn’t even offer Ennis on his own for Stasny.
Really?
Chris Stewart scored 13 goals in 36 games, roughly 30 goals in a full season. The crux of the Stastny deal is unlocking a Vanek 50 goal season. Vanek has been playing with Roy for a while, and has only scored 40 goals twice. His potential is about 10 goals better. That’s why Stastny is an upgrade: he’s a better pure passer and playmaker than Roy.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
by Der Jaeger on Jul 5, 2011 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Really?
In 469 games, Roy has 239 assists, almost exactly 1 assist every 2 games.
In 348 games, Stastny has 216 assists, a better assist-to-game ratio.
Roy has been playing with Vanek and others, including time during the 06-07 ECF teams.
Stastny hasn’t played with that same talent.
Stastny’s cap hit is larger, but he’s a better passer and a better fit with Vanek.
What’s so hard to understand about that? You may disagree, but it’s far from illogical, and doesn’t mean that I don’t understand.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
by Der Jaeger on Jul 5, 2011 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Stats aren’t everything though. I fully understand where you are coming from with the premise that Statsny is a better set-up man. And I’m not going to argue with it. The stats favour Statsny but I still think it’s debatable given different offensive philosophies and whatnot.
Second, Roy is a far more valuable player than Statsny when you consider his 2-way play, his effectiveness on the PK and his time on the power play and closing out games.
With that said, Vanek has clearly evolved over the last 2-3 years and has become perhaps the best passer (again, “perhaps”) on the Sabres team, that’s not a knock on the other “playmakers” here, its just a complement to Vanek. After Roy was injured Vanek had the puck on his stick more, that’s why he produced. I don’t know if bringing in a guy like Statsny will necessarily help Vanek after we learned how good he is with the puck. If you’ve seen Statsny play you can see he’s also a guy who does much better when he controls the puck.
I think our best bet as the team looks today is to stick with Roy and Leino and hope the Leino is the type of guy who can create room for Vanek and Staff without dominating the puck.
I can agree with this somewhat. I think Vanek’s playmaking is out of need and not out of a greater ability to pass than score. I think Vanek can be as effective without the puck on his stick, finishing, similar to how he played during the Flyers series. With a passer like Stastny, I could see Vanek moving his game to a finishing role.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
by Der Jaeger on Jul 5, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Roy isn't any where's near being the player that Statsny
Statsny plays a team game. Roy doesn’t have any idea how to play team hockey
by Winnie33 on Jul 6, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
OK
Before I get mad and go on a tangent, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Can you please explain to me WHY you think this way?
A lot of people say this kind of thing about Roy and I don’t understand why.
Stuff WGR and TBN has told them, makes it true.
"If we needed any more motivation to win a Cup sooner than later, we've got one now," Black said. "I really want to listen to the game that RJ calls when he finally gets to shout out, 'Buffalo wins the Stanley Cup.'"
by FloridaBuffalo on Jul 6, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Not the first time I've seen this play posted on here.
That play can just as easily be blamed on Sekera, twice. Once for making a bad pass in Roy’s skates that would have gotten Roy murdered if he put his head down to find the puck, and the second time for losing the puck in the corner. And if you’re gonna use one play to encompass Roy’s poor defense, it would carry more weight if he wasn’t defending one of the most talented forwards in the world. Sure Roy could have done better, but not a lot of people in the league score right there.
And as long as we’re using one play to label players, you must really hate Mike Weber: http://sabres.nhl.com/club/recap.htm?id=2010020401
by lgbfromoregon on Jul 7, 2011 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Not even close.
Find me a single player who has never made a mistake.
could have done better – is a phrase that could be used to describe any player at some point in some game.If we’re going to define players by one isolated play I could make every single player look like a bum or a superstar, depending on what suits my argument.
But he does that time and time again. I can’t remember the exact game, but it was two or three years ago at the end of the season when the Sabres were in a dogfight to make the playoffs. He & Stafford just lolly gagged it on the back check while the opponent scored a goal, icing the win. I wish I could remember exactly what game I’m referring to, but I can’t.
He is not the same play he was "two or three years ago".
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
Did you see the way he played last year?
Beyond that fact the most guys who just turned 28 have had their game evolve since they were 25, Roy’s game has obviously grown. He is no longer the diver he was. He plays with an air of confidence.
Using one play from “two or three” years ago to demonstrate that a player is a “lolly-gagger” or whatever is illogical. First because you can’t use a single play to define a player overall, and second because it was two or three years ago.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
by Ogre39666 on Jul 11, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Jordan Staal!!!
Bringing Stastny in for what you suggest doen’t seem worth it, but I love the idea of Jordan Staal as a Sabre. Many people are hung up on this idea of an elite #1 center, but from my observations, having a high quality defensive center has gone a long ways in recent playoffs. Look at the defensive play of Datsyuk and Zetterberg, Staal, Teows and Bolland, Kessler and Bergeron. There’s a lot to be said about shutting down the opposition’s top guys, and to have physicality in the top 6 forwards, and to carry that physicality through the playoffs. I really wonder what it would take to get Staal, or some other physical 2-way center. Any comments/ideas?
by XXX on Jul 4, 2011 3:08 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
You forgot Pavelski
In light of the trade bombshells the Sharks have already dropped, it’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility, right?
Penguins Perspective
NO WAY that deal flys for Jordan Staal
Not. Even. Close.
The Penguins don’t need warm bodies (Boyes, who you have on the 3rd line, and Sekera, who you have as 3rd pairing). The non-impact draft pick adds nothing.
by Diomedes7 on Jul 4, 2011 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Boyes is on the third line because Pominville and Stafford are in front of him, not due to lack of talent. Staal, BTW, is also a third line player due to circumstance.
Sekera and Boyes are far from warm bodies. Also, go check out Hockeysfuture’s trade boards. Most Pens fans take that deal.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
That's because it's Hockey's futures
If they rubbed their brain cells together they might be able to make a fire. Seriously, HF is a shit show. They take Eklund seriously. I also disagree that Boyes is as talented as Pominville and Stafford.
I would never trade Roy as part of any deal for Stastny for the reasons everyone has mentioned. I also won’t ever include Miller, Myers, Stafford, Ennis, Vanek or Gragnani. I think Stastny is pretty overrated even though everyone has mentioned him. I love the idea of Pavelski. Drury’s knee is shot. Unless he’s coaching, I don’t want him around.
You're correct if you stereotype everyone
But there are a lot of smart posters over there. And most of them don’t take Eklund seriously.
I never said that Boyes is as talented as Pominville or Stafford… go back and read what I wrote. Never wrote it.
My reasoning for Roy-Stastny is that Stastny is a better set-up center. Stastny-Vanek would be far more potent that Vanek-Roy.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
While I can agree with you about giving Vanek a different Center.
I can’t see trading Roy for that player. At the worst case you have Roy center the 3rd line and Leino center the 2nd line with the acquired center playing the top line. Now it has already been rumored that Goose, Sekera, and either Boyes/Pomminville could get you Stastny. I myself would not make that trade but I could see the reasoning to do it.
Then how about instead of making a lateral move (or a lopsided deal)
you go after someone else that wouldn’t cost you Roy – like Pavelski (who I think would flourish under Ruff).
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
I could get on board with that as a counter to a Roy-Stastny deal
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Can’t say I’ve seen too many bright posters on hf. And saying that a trade is workable because of what idiots say on hfboards is, well, funny.
You certainly implied that Boyes had the talent to be on the first two lines. Or at least that lack of talent wasn’t what was keeping him off of the first two lines.
And lastly, the whole trading for Stastny so he can be Vanek’s center is sort of ridiculous because that’s just not how Lindy Ruff does things. While Vanek and Roy have played together lots, they also haven’t played together lots, even before Roy’s injury. Stastny would be spending lots of time playing with other wingers and Vanek would be spending time playing with other Centers. I just don’t think the Sabres would ever acquire a player just because they think he would work really well with another of their players, unless their name is Pat Lalime.
So, a poster on one board is saying that posters on another board are idiots? How does that work?
Boyes does have top 6 talent. He had two good seasons followed by two bad. He’s got the talent, but hasn’t produced.
I understand that Ruff juggles his lines. You don’t think Regier acquired Regehr to be the defensive partner for Myers? What is Buffalo had Crosby? Would Ruff keep Vanek and Crosby apart half the time? What about the Ward-Peca-Varada line that Ruff never broke up? Maybe the line juggling has less to do with philosophy and more to do with chemesty/talent?
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. Go to some of the other SBNation hockey sites and see what they have to say about HFBoards if you don’t believe me. They cater to different constituencies.
Boyes has produced, but not for awhile. That’s like saying Dick Jauron had head coaching talent because he had that 13-3 year. Isn’t it more likely that Boyes productive years were aberrations just as Jauron’s good season was?
I don’t think that Regier acquired Regehr to be a defensive partner for Myers. I heard a interview with Lindy where he basically admitted as such. He said you have to see what chemistry develops on the ice. However, chemistry can develop with more than one person, and it might change depending on the opponent. As to the PWV line – again, how long ago was that now? 13 years?Lindy has evolved a little as a coach. And people also forget that that line was basically only together for the playoffs. It didn’t last.
I lurk on the Sabres and Trade Board at HF at times. There are a lot of crappy posters there. But there are a lot of good ones. If you ignore the 20 crappy posts and just go for the 1-2 good ones, especially ones with decent track records of being accurate, it’s a good tool. Can’t throw the baby out witht the bath water just due to the public opinion on SB Nation.
Boyes hasn’t produced in two seasons. That last season he was traded, and did very well at RW until he was moved to center.
Ruff kept Hecht-Briere-Dumont together until Dumont left. He kept Kotalik-Drury-Grier together until Drury and Grier left. He’s kept lines together more recently than the Peca line. There’s other reasons that he juggles lines. But once he finds a good line, he usually sticks to it.
BYW, the Ward-Peca-Varada line was the Sabres line for the entire 99 season. Before that it was the Ward-Peca-Dawe line. Ruff didn’t form it for the playoffs. That was the Sabres shutdown line all year.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
ON HFBoards – hey, it’s your funeral. I personally can’t use sites where there’s that much just useless crap and moronic opinion.
I was thinking of the entire 98 season, when the PWV line was formed only at the very end. Show me above where I said the 1999 season. But they didn’t play together all year during 99. Just most of the time.
And again, the exceptions don’t really prove the rule. Examples from more than 10 years ago don’t really wash. I agree that Lindy likes to put two guys together more than 3 guys. Part of it is that you need a checking line, energy line and a few scoring lines. The guys who can do those get put together. It has nothing to do with who they are really. I think Lindy is willing to experiment now more than ever.
And people also forget that that line was basically only together for the playoffs. It didn’t last.
How does this not mean that Ward-Peca-Varada weren’t together during the season?
Ruff had the Dumont-Briere-Hecht line, Kotalik-Drury-Grier line, Vanek-Roy-Afinogenov line, and the Connolly-Pominville-XXX line rolling as recently as 2006. It’s not ancient history. Give Ruff better talent with better chemistry, and he’s shown the tendency to stick with the line.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Dude
2006 ain’t that recent, especially in sports. It’s definitely pre-system. That’s a full on 5 years ago now. Just let it go.
If your evidence for Ruff keeping lines together is a year and a half of him keeping Peca Ward and Varada together, you’re going to have to do better. There are a lot of coaches that don’t change up their lines nearly as much as Lindy does.
Missing the point
When Ruff has found lines with distinct chemistry advantages (Peca line, Briere line, Drury line) he has tended to let them play together extensively. Leading to my argument that Vanek and Stastny would compliment each other well, and Ruff would keep them together.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
But
There is nothing to show that Vanek and Stats would synch. They could suck together, and then Stats would play on the 2nd line and we’d have nobody to play with vanek (assuming Roy is gone as part of this deal).
True
It’s an assumption based on the style that Stastny plays. There’s always a risk of bad chemistry when making moves.
I do dismiss the argument that Regier shouldn’t look for a playmaker to team with Vanek because Ruff juggles lines. He hasn’t always juggled lines, and I believe he has kept lines together long-term when they worked well.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
I agree
I just don’t think Stastny is the guy. I think Regier and Ruff’s emphasis is less on someone to play with stars then someone who works within the system, which is mostly based around defensive hockey.
OK, fair enough. That seems logical.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Did Regeir acquire Regehr to play with Myers? I don’t think so.
If we had Crosby would he always play with Vanek? I don’t think so either.
In those cases didn’t we all think that Morrissonn was coming in to play with Myers? I think most of us did and that clearly didn’t work out.
If a line has an unproductive shift they get broken up by Ruff, let alone a bad game. He’s already proven he doesn’t care who you are. Last year Vanek played long stretches with Hecht and Pomminville. He even played with Goose as his Centerman for a handful of games.
If this was all about putting Vanek with the best set-up man then he would’ve played with Connolly a LOT more than he did.
I think Regier acquired Regehr to a) add physicality to the blue line, and b) to pair with Myers to allow him more freedom defensively.
If Buffalo had Stastny (who is light years better than recent Connolly play), I’d bet Ruff keeps him with Vanek.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
right
But Connolly and Vanek have both been with the Sabres since the lockout, and in that time, even when Connolly was the best player on the ice the pair of them probably played a total of 50 games on the same line. And clearly, hate Connolly as you may, but he was undoubtedly the best passer and facilitator on this team in ALL of those years. So if it were simply about putting Vanek with a good set-up C then Connolly would’ve been Vaneks primary Center.
I don’t hate Connolly, so bringing that up as part of the argument is irrelevant.
Chemistry is important also. There’s nothing saying Stastny and Vanek would click. I think they would based on style of play. Connolly and Vanek didn’t click, mostly because Connolly was a positional center and Vanek isn’t truly a banger that will dig the puck out of corners. Stastny will.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
The Pen's fans on HF aren't Shero
While many Pens fans might take that trade, we aren’t dealing with Pens fans, we’re dealing with the current Pens GM (somehow I don’t see him getting the boot anytime soon). Shero likes Staal. Is it irrational? Maybe, but they have those 3 at center for a while now, and have shown no inclination to trade any one of them, let alone the most cap-friendly one.
Trading three of our centers for one center sounds like an excellent idea. I see no problem with that whatsoever.
by Katemc on Jul 4, 2011 3:23 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
If you're counting Hecht and Boyes as centers, then you're argument is valid.
But Boyes and Hecht are passable at center, not true centers like Stastny and Staal.
I’d rather go with Stastny-Staal-Gaustad-Adam than Roy-Leino-Hecht-Gaustad.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
I dislike this
Roy and ennis for Stastny is 2 steps forward 5 steps back. Stastny isn’t much, if any, of an upgrade over Roy, at a bigger cap hit. Throwing in Ennis makes us worse both short and long term. We lose on that deal.
Trade for Staal: Good luck on that one. The Pens have resisted trading Staal for a while now, I see no reason why they would start now.
I Like The Thought That Went Into This...
…although I don’t entirely agree with the decisions. Good to see you over here, DJ!
Stastny is a better center and a better offensive player than Roy, AND he is not coming off a major injury. But trading one for the other is IMO counter-productive simply because it still leaves the Sabres with a shortage of playmaking centermen. Sekara/Hecht/Ennis and a pick I would do in a heartbeat but that doesn’t help the cap floor situation for Colorado. They would want more.
Like adding Drury – he plays well under Lindy and would add depth to the center spot, good in the circle, plus I think a lot of the current players came up while he wore the C and have some respect for him as a locker room presence. But he’s a 40 point scorer max unless he has some kind of unexpected renaissance, so he’s a 3rd or 4th liner.
IMO the obsession with landing a Top 25 Centerman is foolish. The Bruins did just fine without one. I’d argue that Stastny AND Roy – before the injury – are better than Bergeron or Krecji (Savard is a great player, but an injury concern and a locker room problem). My interest is bringing in someone familiar with the position; Staal or Pavelski would both be great fits…Stoll isn’t great, but he’s a really good face-off man coming in for about what Hecht made. With Stoll/Goose they’d have 2 of the Top 10 face off men in the league.
So I wouldn’t mind:
Vanek/Roy/Stafford
Leino/Stoll or Pavelski/Boyes
Gerbe/Gaustad/Pommer
McCormick/Drury/Kaleta
Regehr/Myers
Ehrhoff/Weber
Leopold/Gragnani
Miller/Enroth
Thanks
I’m not a big Roy fan, and see Stastny as a major upgrade. While it’s true that trading Roy for Stastny is a lateral move on the surface, the upside is with Vanek. A passer/playmaker like Stastny could unlock a Vanek 50 goal season.
I think the Bruins are a bit of an aberition similar to the Devils: Boston gets away with it, but it’s hard to replicate. Most of the previous Cup winners had two good centers. I think Stastny and Staal are a good combo.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
by Der Jaeger on Jul 5, 2011 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So you use the Bruins as a model of how the Sabres should be bigger to justify dealing Roy, Ennis, Hecht, and a pick for Stastny
but then say they are “a bit of an aberration”.
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Never said that
I said this:
Additionally, it seems that the league is shifting to a more physical style of play; this is evident after watching the Bruins pound their way to the Cup.
I also never said that Boston was a bit of an aberition due to physicality. I said that because they don’t have the true 1-2 combo at center that Detroit, Pittsburgh, Chicago, etc, have had as past Cup winners.
I don’t mind that you disagree with me on the trades. You’re trying to connect things I never said, or taking words out of context, and use them as you’re argument. If you know me from Buffalo Rumblings, you’ll know that isn’t going to work. : )
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
You use Boston as an example of how teams need to be tougher and rougher
but then when someone else points to them as an example of how you don’t need your top-2 center to be all-league caliber, you call them an aberration.
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You need to keep your arguments straight.
There are two seperate arguments that I am making.
Argument 1: Buffalo should get bigger and tougher.
Argument 2: Boston didn’t have the traditional 1-2 center combo and won the Cup, which is an aberition.
I never merged the arguments. They are totally seperate. I’m not quite sure why this is confusing.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
You can't have it both ways.
Why can you use the Bruins as an example of what the league is moving towards (physical style of play), but other people can’t (overall depth over center depth)? I can just as easily dismiss their rough and tough style of play succeeding as an aberration.
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You're missing the point
I made the argument that the league is moving toward a physical style of play, citing the Bruins.
Responding to a comment, I said that the Bruins lack of a true 1-2 center combo was an aberition.
They are, in no way, linked. Two completely seperate arguments.
You cannot dismiss the rough, physical style of play. Buffalo had to significantly raise their level of physicality just to take the Flyers to seven games. The Lightning had to do the same with the Bruins. Montreal played physical against the Bruins. The league is getting bigger without losing mobility, and the game is becoming more of a physical brand, especially in the playoffs. Very hard to dismiss that because you’re trying to make a point.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
They don't have to be linked.
You cite something (rough and tough play being in vogue) as an example and it’s beyond reproach.
Someone else cites something (overall depth is better than center depth) as an example and it’s an aberration.
That’s what I’m pointing out.
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That's not what I'm saying
The Boston center issue is based on past history. The most recent Cup winners (Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh) and many past Cup winners (old Detroit, Colorado, Dallas, Carolina) had 1-2 center combo far better than what Boston fielded this year.
The only sustainable success in the past 20 years without 1-2 center combo has been New Jersey; themselves an aberition due to Brodeur and an adherance to the neutral zone trap with a roster designed to implement it. Many teams tried but couldn’t match what NJ did.
So it’s not me saying the 1-2 center concept is beyond reproach. It’s backed by history.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
And not needing to be a rough and tumble team is also supported by history.
Besides the Bruins and Ducks, what recent Cup winner was considered to play a superior physical style? Talbot and Orpik did but Pittsburgh didn’t overall. Fransen, Kronwall, and Holmstrom did but Detroit overall didn’t. Chicago didn’t. The Hurricanes didn’t.
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You've got to keep facts and arguments straight
Argument #1: I said that the league seems to be heading toward a more physical style. I didn’t back this with historical facts, because when a league trends to a new style, it’s trending away from the current style. The past style was puck-possession and skating oriented. Boston played neither.
Argument #2: Cup winners over the past 15 years have generally had a legitimate 1-2 center combo. History plays into this argument, since I’m arguing over time. Colorado, old and new versions of Detroit, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Dallas and Carolina have followed this trend. Only New JErsey had sustained Cup success without a legit 1-2 center combo.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Is one year enough to determine that the league is trending this way? Look at the team they were playing in the west… skill and speed. Look at the other team in the ECF… skill and speed. In fact, apart from Boston, what other bruisers did well?
Another way to look at it, if Der Jaeger will graciously bestow upon me the argumentative latitude
is that last season, people though “Oh, look at Chicago and Philadelphia, maybe teams don’t need a stud between the pipes to be legit winners”. The problem with that is they formed a new philosophy (one that was proved to be an aberration) around a sample size of one year. People thought the same thing that Der Jaeger is thinking with the Bruins when the Ducks won it. “Oh, the league is shifting to a more bruising style and you’ll need everyone over 6-foot to survive.” Guess what? The Red Wings and Penguins played for the Cup the next season. Two teams that you could not call bruisers. What people conveniently forget when they try to put a spin on a particular year’s Cup winner to develop a “trend” is that the winning teams always have overall depth. Always. (Or were remarkably healthy which is just the luck of the draw and not something that can be planned necessarily.) The Bruins and Canucks were deep teams. The Flyers and Blackhawks were deep teams. The Red Wings and Penguins were deep teams. The Ducks were a deep team. That is the connecting characteristic that we should be looking to build towards. Not being big, or only looking for center depth. Overall, team depth. And thankfully, it looks like Darcy has really built a deep team this offseason.
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by Ogre39666 on Jul 11, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
This
You can’t be reactive to what other teams are doing, although it’s good to keep some idea. You have to create your own flexible and versatile identity and strategy that suits your players and be really, really good at it. That is how you win championships.
Good points
Another way to look at it, if Der Jaeger will graciously bestow upon me the argumentative latitude
Really? It’s takes you the majority of the thread to get your argument straight, and you start it by taking a shot?
My ideas may be wrong. But don’t get mad because I came up front with a strong opinion and backed it up, every time.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Now this isn't constructive
Did Ogre take a shot at you? Yeah, a pretty minor one if you ask me. But, here you show why. I had a much easier time tracking his argument about Cup winners than I did yours. Now, that’s the beauty of a thread like this, people can carry on conversations, interact, clarify things that need clarification, and unfortunately, yes, insult each other. Emphasis on each other because
It’s takes you the majority of the thread to get your argument straight
ain’t a compliment in any country I ever heard of. Now, I think its pretty minor, but that’s what I thought about Ogre’s line too.
Honestly, I thought Ogre was pretty clear in what he was saying from the beginning. Your bit about getting more physical you never backed up, you just nitpicked his argument. Now, maybe you really didn’t see his point, but I know that I did, and that he didn’t do a terrible job of making it. You see, the same form of argument was used in both cases. You attacked one instance but defended another. It isn’t wrong to ask why those cases are different. Now maybe Ogre should have stated his question more clearly, but it wasn’t a bad question nor was it impossible to divine from what he wrote.
by Hopefulcynic on Jul 14, 2011 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I backed up all my points effectively, as pointed out by others on this thread. I did point out that he was intermingling arguments. He got snarky, as admitted to below.
Not terrible, but not going to let it go unnoticed.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Understood -
I like both Roy and Stastny. That’s why I’d move some other guys to keep Roy and acquire PS. Play Roy at a # 2.
They are, to a point. Just looking at the top 4 from last year, Vancouver obviously has two of the Top 5 centers in the game, IMO. Tampa has Vinny and Stamkos. But San Jose has Thornton and after him Pavelski and Couture…maybe I put Pavelski in the Top 30 centers – barely – and Couture could certainly develop into one, they can get away with a couple of 50-60 point centers at #2 and #3.
I would be very happy with a Roy/Pavelski/Goose/McCormick group of centers. Even substitute a Jarret Stoll in there, or a Dubinsky, for Pavelski. Not as much as I would Stastny/Roy/Goose McCormick, but I like any of these options more than the Roy/Leino/Goose/McCormick group we’re looking at right now.
And I would really like Zach Parise more than any of those guys!
Agree on all
I just don’t see the Avs (or anyone) trading a #1 center and not asking for a top 6 center in return.
If the Avs didn’t want Roy (Gaustad instead?) then a Stastny-Roy combo works.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
On That Point -
I do agree. In all likelihood, moving a #1 center from anywhere to BFLO would require some kind of significant value at center or a #1 wing (Vanek, Stafford?) in return, unless, say, Pittsburgh or the NYR where they have 3 Centers that could be Top 6 forwards (if Steppan pans out) but a lack of depth at wing.
The only thing that would make that point moot is dealing with the cap. If a team is strapped with the new cap – either the floor or the ceiling – then the old talent for talent gets tossed. I’m not sure what Colorado’s cap situation is, but if they are in trouble it is likely on the low end. So in that instance, we’d have to give them a lot of salary to make it worth their while. Other than Pommer, I don’t think BFLO has anyone we can put in a package to even approach Stastny’s salary.
In short, as much as I like Stastny, I don’t see us having the disposable personnel to make that move. However, given the bizarre Varlamov deal, one can only guess what’s going on in Denver.
I would do the trade for Stall in a heartbeat.
Good blood line for hockey and already proven with a ring. I also think what you propose is very good value for both teams. Would love for this to happen. Rec’d for the time and effort.
Rookies are like teabags...you don't know what you're gonna get until you put them in hot water. -Harry Neale
Would love the trade for Stall...
I want no part of trading Roy for anyone but Stamkos right now.
Rookies are like teabags...you don't know what you're gonna get until you put them in hot water. -Harry Neale
Penguins counterproposal
equivalent to what was proposed for Staal above…
Penguins give:
Tyler Kennedy, 3RW
Matt Niskanen, 3rd pairing D
and
2nd round pick
Sabres give:
Derek Roy
That's a Stretch -
Staal is a nice 2nd-3rd line Center, but his averages are 45-50 points a game and he plays a damn good defensive game. But Derek Roy is the better player, at least statistically, by a long shot…putting up 70+ points avg over 3 of the last 4 years.
I don’t think the Pens would part with Staal – esp not now, with Crosby’s problems.
Roy is better statistically b/c he plays on the #1 line, and he’s a bit better offensively.
Staal is better defensively.
They are both most appropriately and on most other teams 2Cs.
And, Staal will be 2C for Pittsburgh this year, assuming the stars come back healthy.
Thus the equivalence of the counterproposal.
It looks ugly to Sabres fans b/c they understand their player better.
But trust me, Der Jaeger’s Staal proposal is pure fantasy.
You don’t trade quality for a bunch of quantity — at least Cup contenders don’t.
Lastly, Staal was Shero’s 1st draft pick as GM of the Penguins.
2nd overall.
Not. Going. Anywhere.
Did we forget to mention its Calgary's 2nd:)
Just sayin…. Sekera has good upside and Boyes is a two time 30 goal scorer. Not really close to your counter proposal. While your team has better top 6 depth than us, we have better bottom 6 depth that you. Making your counter much weaker than our trade. But I can see why you wouldnt trade Stall…. I just think it would work for both teams.
Rookies are like teabags...you don't know what you're gonna get until you put them in hot water. -Harry Neale
.
Additionally, it seems that the league is shifting to a more physical style of play; this is evident after watching the Bruins pound their way to the Cup. Buffalo can’t afford to have too many mites on the team.
So you propose adding Drury…
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Drury is bigger than Roy and Ennis, and isn't a top 6 forward at this point in his career
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
But you rationalize a lopsided deal for Stastny by saying that the team needs to get bigger (which is debatable)
but then turn around and add a sub-6 foot center ignoring your own plan.
And Drury is a whopping 1 inch and 2 pounds bigger than Roy.
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Drury can essentially be a 4th line winger that doesn’t score, and he’s a contributor with his leadership. Gerbe, Roy, and Ennis can’t do that. But those three can be top 6 forwards.
There’s a huge difference in having Ennis and Roy in the top 6 (versus Stastny), and having that player in the bottom 6 surrounded by Gaustad, Adam, Kassian, McCormick, etc.
Of everything I said, that’s what you’re nitpicking?
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Why can't Roy, Gerbe, and Ennis be top six forwards who do score and be leaders?
Prior to his injury, Roy was displaying a crap-ton of leadership. Gerbe was BC’s captain and he never shies away from anything in the NHL.
I’m nitpicking the idea that Roy, Ennis, Hecht, and a pick are inferior to Stastny and that somehow smaller size is a problem for Roy and Ennis and Gerbe but jot for Drury when they’ve each shown that it’s not.
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We're getting nowhere.
Roy and Ennis are both 5-9. Roy is 185, Ennis is 160 when wet. Stastny is 6-0/205. All three are top 6 forwards.
There’s a big difference between having two mites playing big minutes on the top lines, and having a smaller defensive forward playing in the bottom 6. Having Roy and Ennis in the top 6 could be a detriment against bigger teams. Having a smaller player in the bottom 6, where the bigger forwards aren’t taking advantage of the size difference as much to create scoring/eliminate scoring, is a huge difference.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Having Roy and Ennis in the top-6 means we have at least 2 very skilled players and speed.
And since when are checking lines not taking advantage of size? That’s what they do. They use their size and toughness to wear down the opposing teams skill players and defensemen. It’s as much of a problem on the bottom-6 as it is on the top-6 (except that Roy, Ennis, and Gerbe have shown that it’s not something that gets in the way of production for them).
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Here’s the difference: Buffalo is counting on Roy, Ennis, and to a lesser extend, Gerbe, to produce points. Roy and Ennis need to produce as top 6 forwards. Bigger teams can shut smaller teams out. Boston essentially shut down the Lightning offense for 3 of the 7 games in the ECF, where MSL and Stamkos produced, but mostly in bunches. They were kept in check half the time.
So, by keeping 3 smaller forwards, Buffalo is trying to play the 2006 skating philosophy, with Roy, Ennis, and Gerbe instead of Roy, Connolly, and Briere. It worked well then but may not now.
Drury isn’t being asked to score. He’s being asked to do things that size can’t effect: bring veteran leadership, win key faceoffs, and play smart positional hockey alongside bigger but younger forwards (Adam, Kassian). If Drury scores, it’s a bonus. So, sure, a team like Boston can keep Drury off the score sheet because he’s small. But that’s not what he’s being asked to do.
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by Der Jaeger on Jul 5, 2011 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Drury is a broken old man with a bum knee.
Why can’t we move past this damn Drury thing. The man is gone. Let him stay gone. He has a bad knee.
There are other leaders out there, why do we have to keep beating this Chris Drury thing to death.
That was then . This is now.
MOVE ON PEOPLE, nothing to see here.
by powerslave on Jul 5, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Not to mention his presence in the locker room
might destroy what Vanek and Roy seem to have achieved in the last year in terms of leadership.
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by Ogre39666 on Jul 5, 2011 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not to mention
We don’t know how good a “leader” Drury is.
He has won championships and been part of winners. So has Kaberle. There is no concrete evidence that he even is a great leader, just like there’s no concrete evidence that Roy isn’t a great leader. We simply don’t know, we apply our hero/villain impressions based mostly on our own impressions, not on real evidence.
I trust guys like Lindy Ruff to figure that shit out.
Exactly, and
not just those two – anyone who was a kid in the Drury days (Goose, Pom, Miller, even Staffy) and Leopold, who’s got my vote for Captain.
It’s fairly easy to put together a weak argument like this, stereotyping me as one of the many longing for a return to the 06-07 Sabres teams.
But that’s not what I said.
I argue that the Sabres should add Drury in a Grier/Niedermeyer role: bringing intelligence and sound positional hockey to the 3/4 lines, which are bound to be manned by youngsters like Adam, Kassian and Foligno at some point over the next two seasons.
Drury can also win faceoffs, and is one of the best leaders in the game. And I’m not worried about if Drury’s leadership role steps on the toes of Vanek and Roy. Truly leaders adjust for the benefit of the team. If Vanek and Roy are leaders, they will.
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by Der Jaeger on Jul 6, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And it's quite easy to pas off what powerslave said as an attempt to characterize you as a 06-07 Sabres lover.
Doing that however, means you miss his biggest point about that pesky degenerative knee problem (the man did write it twice).
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DaQuan Bowers has a degenerative knee. He’s playing this fall.
It doesn’t mean that Drury can’t play. What it means is that Drury would need a medical check by the Sabres’ doctors before signing.
It’s somewhat difficult to conduct medical checks on a SB Nation board. Unless you’ve got access to he medical records?
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
by Der Jaeger on Jul 6, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You can also look at his ineffectiveness over the last few years and the fact he was bought out to suggest he’s no good.
I can agree to this
It’s something anyone considering signing Drury has to take into account. It’s going to be a balance between his medical condition and ability to play. If the knee was the reason that his play suffered, then the question remains the seriousness of his condition.
If his knee checks out as not that bad, then the question becomes the level of play.
For Drury, ideally, the answer lies somewhere in the middle: knee isn’t that bad, but bad enough to limit play, and it has healed. That’s the condition that anyone who wants to sign him should be looking for, IMO.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Agree with that last paragraph...
and would add a few other possible reasons for why Drury’s performance could be decent in Buffalo:
- His knee injury caused his poor play, but has healed. (like you listed as would be “best case”)
- Drury could just thrive more in a Lindy Ruff-type system….maybe the Rangers ran a system that he didn’t fit well in? That can def happen in hockey, where different teams have different systems.
- Reduced role: he wouldn’t be counted on to work miracles or perform up to top 1-2 line expectations….more a steady, intelligent, sound positionally hockey player role.
- And in relation to the reduced role come reduced expectations….maybe Drury would excel when not under the weight and heat that come with a huge contract?
Could be anyone or a mix of the above that could lead to Chris Drury being a fine signing for the 3-4th line.
"WHEN THE WAGON BLASTER TAKES OFF dont try to get in. THE SPACESES ARE LIMITED FOR WINNING ATTITUDE GODZILLA IS COMING GET READY" - abayarde
by StroudFanClub on Jul 6, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agree on all
Disqualifying Drury now is fairly foolish without a medical check by the Sabres’ staff.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
by Der Jaeger on Jul 6, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Drury
- Has been playing in a 3/4 line role in NYR over the last 2 years. Yes his contract was high but the Rangers werent expecting him to be a top 2 C over the last 2 years and he STILL performed below expectations.
- The Sabres system has changed a LOT since Drury was here, so he can’t just step back into a system where he previously flourished because the Sabres are a different team now.
- He may only be early 30’s but his injuries have aged him to a late 30’s type of player.
- Money spent on Drury would be better used elsewhere (extra cap room to take on another, better C).
- I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s some resentment within the organization from guys like Lindy, Darcy, Miller etc.
All in all, I just don’t understand why any Sabres fan would want any part of current-day Drury other than the nostalgia factor. He’s not a player anymore. His “leadership” isn’t necessary. I can only see him taking opportunities away from younger guys.
lol
DaQuan Bowers also saw his draft stock plummet because of said degenerative knee problem. He’s also 20 something, not 30 something.
I’m not a doctor, but degenerative knee conditions tend to have shelf-lives. eg: Bowers might not make it through his first contract.
Drury may have time left. It’s all a doctor’s call. Simply dismissing my thought of resigning Drury to a bottom 6 leadership role a la Niedermeyer without a medical exam is folly.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
This is why I would have been upset with the Bills drafting DaQuan. Bowers might work out in the NFL but he could also get hurt in training camp (assuming there is one) and not play a down. Why take the risk? Is the reward that great?
I feel like the Sabres have some vet leadership already. Acquiring Drury is not worth the reward. I also think that Drury legitimately doesn’t want to play in Buffalo, which is why he left in the first place. Color me totally disinterested.
It's just another nail in the coffin.
1. He is 34.
2. He hasn’t had a successful season in years (08-09).
3. Ruff’s system has changed since he was last here.
4. A return may or my not step on some toes in the lockeroom.
5. He has health problems.
Individually (or maybe even a pair) they aren’t a big deal, but together it’s an unnecessary risk for a 3rd/4th line veteran guy.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
Niedermayer could actually get on the ice. Drury can’t. Unless you want to put Drury in the Rivet role and have him leading from the press box, there is NO reason to acquire him. HE. CAN’T. PLAY. HIS KNEE WILL EXPLODE AND COVER THE BENCH AREA WITH KNEE JUICE. RIP SIMONICK WILL HAVE TO CLEAN IT UP. IT WILL BE A BAD SCENE.
by Philaster on Jul 6, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
How can you know?
Drury may be one of those veterans that has something to prove, “might” get a real solid year out of him.
He also might bomb but don’t you have to take chances to win a cup? If you do what everyone else is doing then you will always be one step behind
by Shaun Gonzalez on Jul 17, 2011 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course you need to take chances.
But if you do you need to take a chance that’s low risk/high reward.
Drury is neither. He’s not going to come into a team for 750,000 and he’s not going to light it up. He’s going be wanting at least 1.5mil and at a max he’ll get you 35 points. Both of those are ideal, but the chances of him coming in, playing about 50 games and adding 15-20 points is a lot more realistic. Why put money down on Drury for that when there are so many better options?
If Drury never played for Buffalo, nobody would care about bringing him back. It’s just a bunch of nostalgia and “glory days” talk that isn’t going to benefit anybody.
Vanek/Roy/Stafford
Ennis/Leino/Boyes
Hecht/Gaustad/Gerbe
Kaleta/Adam/McCormick
IR: Pominville
Where exactly do we need him?
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
im not a fan of statsny
In fact,the only one on cols mind is Miller. And they don’t have enough talent to get him.
Stahl at the deadline? Only for draft picks or prospects. Drury has a degenerative knee problem. He will retire at seasons end. Leino and adam wait n see. I think you will be surprised.
Not a big fan
Giving Sekera anymore than 2million dollars is absurd and we should let him walk. We are loaded with defensive prospects and I’d prefer Grangani over him anyways.
Trading Roy for Statsny would be like the Heatly for Havlat trade. One for one you can argue the strenths and weaknesses of both of them, but both are very good. Adding in Ennis to the deal puts it all in Colorado’s favor.
If you do see us trade for a first line center it will most likely be around the trading deadline with us giving up Hecht’s expiring contract and a 1st rounder (maybe 1st and 2nd) to get a player we desire. Jordan Staal is not a 1st line center. He is arguably not a second line center. He fills his role in the Penguins lineup like no other….but he does not have much in the offensive department.
What I wish someone would do is pull a Kevin Lowe and go after some Restricted Free Agents. I don’t like all this “don’t touch our RFAs” bull-crap the owners/GMs live by. Someone needs to offer the world to Stamkos and Doughty. Pronto.
Someone needs to offer the world to Stamkos and Doughty. Pronto.
This. It’s a business. Not an old boys club.
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
Erase Roy and insert Pommenville
BIG No Thank You on Drury
Had to rec the post
I may not agree w/ some of your decisions, DJ, but it sure has sparked (mostly) good discussion! I too would rather we not lose Roy, but would like to see the addition of Stastny. Perhaps Staffy or Pommers as part of the deal? I’m not at all keen on including Ennis, but he does represent a good bargaining chip. I love the Staal deal, FWIW. The scariest thing to me is once all your moves are said and done, we’ve got Goose and Adam as our #3 and #4 C’s, and that seems a line too high for each of them. Perhaps if Leino worked out at C, he’d be our #3, Goose at 4, and Adam back in ROC…I dunno…I obviously haven’t put as much thought into it as you! Nice job though.
Thanks
I’m not tied to my ideas, and can accept logical disagreement. Much appreciated.
Maybe Leino does work out as the #3. In my scenario, that makes the lines:
Vanek-Stastny-Boyes/Pominville
Gerbe-Staal-Stafford
Drury-Leino-Kassian
McCormick-Gaustad-Kaleta
Maybe Adam can play LW? I don’t know as I have never seen him play.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
sabresprospects.com lists him as LW for now...
So I think we could see him in that type of role on this team in the future. Our C depth according to Kris Baker is very poor, with our 3rd round pick this season being the top center in our system. Like I said in my comment earlier, I am not sure if we can acquire that upgrade in C that Regier talked about this off-season…what we could do instead is acquire another Leino-esque C that could give us three solid lines instead just two. These types of centers could include:
- Jarret Stoll (moved to 3rd line role in LA)
- Valteria Filppula (could be acquired for a D or pick?)
- Antoine Vermette (also pushed down depth chart due to Jeff Carter acquisition; could be acquired for a wing/D)
Acquiring any of these players or players like them would definitely improve our team. When is the last time we would have center depth that was that good on our team? I would say probably 06-07, when we had Briere/Drury/Roy/Gaustad as our four centers. With the players listed above, I would also think we would have to trade straight up for them; i.e. cap money for cap money. I do not see us being able to dump salary in any of the trades in less one of these teams has a love affair with Shaone Morrisonn.
"We’re gonna win the Stanley Cup. Then, you know what, we’re gonna win it again,"
-Terry Pegula
I do not see us being able to dump salary in any of the trades in less one of these teams has a love affair with Shaone Morrisonn
I’m not sure that’s even possible, unless that team was a beer league team somewhere.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Haha.
True that. I know it is reported he wants out, so I wouldn’t care if a low round pick is offered for his services to be honest. We have enough depth in our minors that his play would not be missed. CBJ took Rivet off waivers last year…they should give us a 7th in 2026 for the services of Shaone. That is a done deal in my eyes.
"We’re gonna win the Stanley Cup. Then, you know what, we’re gonna win it again,"
-Terry Pegula
Yea...I always thought he was
and its why Kris Baker’s classifying him as a LW confused me. I really don’t want to argue with Bakes though, he knows his shit when it comes to prospects. So its safe to say he is C/LW…that’s better for fantasy sports anyways :-P
"We’re gonna win the Stanley Cup. Then, you know what, we’re gonna win it again,"
-Terry Pegula
Adam
With Adam for me at least, he’s still too green to be a starting C in the NHL. He needs to become a better skater and get some more experience in Rochester. That might change, and I could be wrong, but that’s just how I see it.
by buffaloparks on Jul 7, 2011 2:34 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Jordan Staal?
LOFL
There is NO WAY Pittsburgh trades us THE BEST 3rd line center in the league for that pile of CRAP. This isn’t NHL11 on XBOX. Even the video game would probably laugh you into the corner with that trade proposal.
Sorry.
Great logical response
I’m sorry to see that the quality of posters on DBTB is a tad below Buffalo Rumblings.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
by Der Jaeger on Jul 6, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What is so hard to understand about Pittsburgh not moving one of their core players?
To even get them thinking about it you’d have to give up a top-5 system prospect (Adam, McNabb, Pysyk, or Kassian), not a 29 year old winger 2 years removed from a 30-goal season with a $4M cap-hit, an albeit promising yet inconsistent 3rd pairing D-man, and a 2nd rounder.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
Difference
Posted by powerslave:
LOFL
There is NO WAY Pittsburgh trades us THE BEST 3rd line center in the league for that pile of CRAP. This isn’t NHL11 on XBOX. Even the video game would probably laugh you into the corner with that trade proposal.
Sorry.
You said this:
One thing Ray Shero is amazing at is identifying his core players and not wavering. He is never going to trade Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Letang, or Staal on his own accord.
See the difference in maturity level? You disagreed and gave a reason: Shero identifies core players and rarely moves them. And you may be right.
What powerslave wrote in no way contributes to any discussion.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
by Der Jaeger on Jul 6, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It really is strange to see a few somewhat "meanspirited" comments
In fact, 2 of the more “sarcastic” and “meanspirited” comments were turned green in this very thread….quite the change from what we are used to over at Buffalo Rumblings, I agree DJ.
Hopefully, it’s more a biproduct of this community not knowing you yet….how good your intentions are, how much you think about and craft your comments and ideas, and how much respect you show other posters. I think that you have handled the comments pretty well, and have responded with sound argments.
I like seeing you talk Sabres hockey. Rec’d and keep up the good work, pal!
"WHEN THE WAGON BLASTER TAKES OFF dont try to get in. THE SPACESES ARE LIMITED FOR WINNING ATTITUDE GODZILLA IS COMING GET READY" - abayarde
by StroudFanClub on Jul 6, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks, much appreciated
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
I think for the most part this has been a pretty good thread though.
There are certain guys on here who can get defensive to the point of being mean-spirited. For me though I’m just glad to have something relevant to talk about in hockey during the off-season.
Me too
Especially with the NFL in lockout.
I’m travelling, so my research ability/time is somewhat limited, so contributing on BR is on hold until mid-August. Fortunately, capgeek.com’s roster calculators/tools makes it very easy….
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Agree.
I’m sorry to see that the quality of posters on DBTB is a tad below Buffalo Rumblings.
While a few disagree with a little more “spirit”, I think the most of are respectful in our discussions…don’t try to lump our community together because a few people are not acting as respectful as they should.
As for those comments being turned greened, this probably occurred because the discussion of trading Roy for an improvement in center has come quite often on this site. While you may be one of the first to write a Post about it, we have had this discussion in threads and on other posts, and I think the majority of DBTB (not speaking for all, so do not kill me) would think that trading Roy for a Stastny or Spezza is a lateral gain that would not improve our team enough to justify the deal. Therefore, when we see the trade suggested again, we may not be as open to it since we may think it is a bad deal. I do not want to ruffle feathers…I just wanted to try to bring justification to some of the comments.
As for the post overall, I think it brought good discussion to the site on a few players (i.e. Stall, Pavelski) that would look so good in blue and gold. Nice job Der Jaeger.
"We’re gonna win the Stanley Cup. Then, you know what, we’re gonna win it again,"
-Terry Pegula
by bgred105 on Jul 6, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t think anyone’s doubting intentions. I never buy into grand plan posts overall. Why? Because they’re usually horrible. No matter who does them. There are a ton of reasons they won’t work. I think if you do a post that was like “Hey, the Sabres should acquire so and so and here is how they can make it work” then that’s a little better in my opinion.
How is condescension better?
While BR has some excellent posters, I’ve seen a fair amount of unproductive comments there as well. Furthermore, attempting to shame a community as a whole is generally considered bad form, and it is that to which I take exception.
As bgred noted, the general idea of trading Roy for Stastny is by no means new. While this does not excuse rudeness, it is a mitigating factor. Additionally, rude is not the same as “meanspirited”, nor is sarcastic. I see no malice or ill will in the rec’d posts of kate, mob, or JSCoope. Sarcasm and lack of respect? Maybe. Do I see any of them as “meanspirited”? No.
I mean no insult, but as best as I can tell, DJ is not a mystical savior blessed with divine hockey insights. He is a dilligent, thoughtful, intelligent poster. Such people are a good resource for a community, but they are not unique. For the most part he has handled this discussion with grace and thought, which is to his credit. However, many (myself included) disagree with him on several points. And while I have no intention of condemning DJ for a lack of respect, he does disrespect the community as a whole in his response to powerslave. Most of his responses are respectful, but not all of them are.
Finaly, DJ, I apologize that I discuss you largely in the third person here. I will have further comments addressed directly to you. This post was largely in direct response to SFC, and so that is to whom it was addressed.
by Hopefulcynic on Jul 6, 2011 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
.
I mean no insult, but as best as I can tell, DJ is not a mystical savior blessed with divine hockey insights.
This. Don’t take this the wrong way, but “well, the Bills aren’t doing anything, so I figured I’d grace you with my presence” isn’t the best way to introduce yourself.
Some of my comments might have come off as mean-spirited, but that wasn’t my intention just as some of Der Jaeger’s came off as being a bit high-and-mighty, but probably weren’t meant as such.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
by Ogre39666 on Jul 6, 2011 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
At what point did I say this?
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Your intro.
This is my first fanpost on DBTB. Some of you may know me from Buffalo Rumblings, but with the NFL in neutral and the NHL in full-stride, I put some thoughts to Terry Pegula’s Sabres. I’m as big of a Sabres fan as a Bills fan, but won’t pretend to know as much. That said, here’s how I would progress from Darcy Regier’s solid off-season.
It’s comes off as if you’re doing us a favor by remodeling a team you admittedly don’t know as much about and you’re only doing it because the NFL isn’t worth your time at the moment. Might just be me, but between that and StroudFanClub’s comments, it’s sounds a bit high-and-mighty-ish.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
by Ogre39666 on Jul 6, 2011 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m as big of a Sabres fan as a Bills fan, but won’t pretend to know as much
Did you totally miss that part? Right in the first paragraph, I admitted that I’m not as knowledgeable about hockey as football.
If you’re taking that as high-and-mighty-ish, I recommend checking the thickness of your skin. Because, if anything, that comes across as humility.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
.
It’s comes off as if you’re doing us a favor by remodeling a team you admittedly don’t know as much about and you’re only doing it because the NFL isn’t worth your time at the moment.
Did you totally mis that part? You say you don’t know as much about the team, but then wheel and deal anyway – and then when people question the logic, act as if you are an authority.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
by Ogre39666 on Jul 6, 2011 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because, if anything, that comes across as humility.
No one can claim with certainty how something comes across because, obviously, that is different for everyone.
Can we just chill out and move on to a more productive topic?
by TEMSON on Jul 6, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Didn't mean to "shame a community as a whole", so I apologize if that is how it came across
I just stated that it was “stange” (ie; different, out of the ordinary) to read some pretty directly sarcastic posts. Maybe “meanspirited” isn’t the word for it….I do like the word you use, “rude” a little better. But by saying there are a “few” of these types of comments is def not condemning an entire community….right?
Either way, I do like this community….I can see it is going to be my “go to” for Sabres-related news and info…I won’t post a ton, but if I do have something to say I will….just wanted to back up my boy DJ a bit, it looked like he was taking fire from all angles and it felt a bit undeserved, in my opinion! : )
Def didn’t mean to insult an entire community, so if you take exception, I do apologize….it was not my intent. My intent was simply to point out the difference in discussion from what we may be used to on another blog.
One suggetion….maybe there should be a list somewhere of topics that must not be discussed here, for fear of outbursts such as "Dammit what don’t people understand?!?!?! "….1.) Trading Derek Roy 2.) Signing Chris Drury 3.)….
"WHEN THE WAGON BLASTER TAKES OFF dont try to get in. THE SPACESES ARE LIMITED FOR WINNING ATTITUDE GODZILLA IS COMING GET READY" - abayarde
by StroudFanClub on Jul 6, 2011 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s a reason I think people here don’t like those comments – it almost seems old meme at this point because both those things have come up so many times before and have I think been talked to death. People who aren’t terribly familiar might not know.
Is everyone done kissing and making up?
"If we needed any more motivation to win a Cup sooner than later, we've got one now," Black said. "I really want to listen to the game that RJ calls when he finally gets to shout out, 'Buffalo wins the Stanley Cup.'"
by FloridaBuffalo on Jul 6, 2011 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, I understand that.
I’m sure those topics have been discussed to death here. I’m sure that when people see a “new poster” bring them up they probably roll their eyes. I get that.
If DJ had come on here and simply wrote things like, “Derek Roy sucks! Tim Connolly sucks! Sign Drury! Trade for Crosby!”, with no further rationale or detail to back up the opinions, and suggesting things that have no basis in reality, then yes, I get sarcastic responses.
But when someone comes on here and makes a post explaining all the thinking and rationale behind every suggestion, and its not completely far-fetched, I dont see how even a person 100% tired of discussing a certain topic(s) can’t simply reply with their reasons why they are against the idea, or don’t post at all.
OR, better yet, provide a link to the past discussions for the new member’s reference….wouldn’t that solve it pretty easily AND let the new poster know the topic has been previously discussed?
"WHEN THE WAGON BLASTER TAKES OFF dont try to get in. THE SPACESES ARE LIMITED FOR WINNING ATTITUDE GODZILLA IS COMING GET READY" - abayarde
by StroudFanClub on Jul 6, 2011 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not that simple
DBTB is not BR. These things don’t get discussed in one discussion usually. It tends to be things that come up over a variety of posts over and over. Makes it hard to one stop shop.
No worries
To me, you came across as someone who was coming into a community and quiclkly critiquing it for not being the community that you are used to. I realize that may not have been your intention, but that was my initial reaction to your post. I’d be quite the hypocrite if I held such a thing against you as I’m sure I’ve had posts where I’ve been less than considerate, to put it mildly.
As for the list of topics, I think all communities have topics that devolve into different people making the same points. Also, I’m not opposed to people continuing to ask the same questions when it is people who genuinely want what is to them new discussion. However, when it is old to the community, I try to be a bit less harsh in my judgments of those who respond too dismissively.
by Hopefulcynic on Jul 6, 2011 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks
The only thing I have to add is this: if I take the time to put something like that together, I’m going to respond similar to how I did to ridiculous response. And there was more than one on this thread.
Part of the reason BR is so successful is because the mods keep it pretty focused and discussion oriented. Maybe I’m not used to other board, because I normally don’t go other many other boards. Just my take on it.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
See, there you have it.
Part of the reason BR is so successful…
I like BR, but I don’t really enjoy the comments over there. To me it seems like 1,000 different people posting the same two opposing opinions over and over (with varying levels of grammar and spelling quality).
I’m certainly not condoning people being rude, but I appreciate this site in part for it’s passionate posters who tend to do a good job of not repeating each other.
Exactly
You can even go into the sociology of how football and hockey attract different people. I’m a fan of the Bills of course, but I can’t really get into BR. The Sabres are my preferred team. My family had Sabres season tix for awhile. Posting about the Bills depresses me because I think a lot of the people in BR are frankly kidding themselves if they have any reason to be optimistic about that team, but that’s my personal opinion.
The whole “Draft Tim Tebow” thing last year on BR really made me not want to go there.
I made the Tebow argument
http://www.mockingthedraft.com/2009/12/29/1224087/tim-tebow-nfl-draft-report
http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2009/12/17/1204204/a-closer-look-at-tim-tebow
Fairly accurate for December, 2009; and prior to Tebow’s draft process, where a lot changed.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Thanks
I got a ton of flak on the Tebow opinion. Not a fan of snarky posters. I take a lot of tme putting opinion pieces together, mostly on BR. That’s why I come back as hard as I do. Sorry if I’ve come off as combative; I come to SB Nation to avoid bar-room banter and snarks. Mostly, it’s really great here, but I do have a tendency to scratch iches hard.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
It's great that you put so much work in
But honestly, opinions are like assholes. Everyone has them. You can’t take criticism of your opinion too seriously. You can back up everything with numbers, but everything in sports just comes down to subjectives anyway. It’s more fun that way.
If you were offended, Sorry. I actually think I wrote the word “sorry” in my post.
Regardless, there is no “mean spirit” here. I am “to the point”, and if you were offended, it wasn’t my intention.
I don’t feel like I have to back up my opinion with “facts” or “stats” or this or that or whatever, whoever or whenever. I had a point to make, and I made it. I was actually enjoying your post, and thought there were some good points, but you lost me with that trade proposal. But, if you want me to “contribute to the conversation” with reasons why, here goes. Staal is going nowhere, especially for the players you listed. If you want Staal, it’s going to take more than a soft, inconsistent, quasi-offensive defenseman (who I think too many people tend to overvalue), and a guy making $4 million a year who has averaged 15 1/2 goals the past two years. Boyes is the type of player teams trade a 2nd round pick for, to possibly add a few goals for a playoff run. Staal is the type of player Pittsburgh trades to fix other problems at other positions, and what you offered does none of that. NO OFFENSE.
If you want Staal, it’s going to take more than a soft, inconsistent, quasi-offensive defenseman (who I think too many people tend to overvalue), and a guy making $4 million a year who has averaged 15 1/2 goals the past two years. Boyes is the type of player teams trade a 2nd round pick for, to possibly add a few goals for a playoff run. Staal is the type of player Pittsburgh trades to fix other problems at other positions, and what you offered does none of that.
If you wrote this at the outset, this is never an issue. Good points.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Some thoughts
To be honest, I do like the roster you propose. However, I feel that it may be lacking in depth when the inevitable injuries hit, unless some prospects are truly NHL ready this year. Giving up three legit players for one, and another two for one could really hurt (although who knows in the longer term.) I haven’t given up on Hecht (remember how much he was missed in the playoffs last year?) Ennis is almost untradable in my book. I would rather see Darcy look for some good chemistry for him, for example, a hard driving, two-way net crashing type (David Backes anyone? I heard maybe Darcy looked into him last season and ended up with Boyes). I also feel that the Sabres top 6 forwards are seriously lacking in physicality. I appreciate that you have tried to solve this problem and add an elite playmaker but doen’t Ennis have some serious playmaking potential? Be careful not to get too caught up in the idea of feeding Vanek.
Depth
That was one of the weaknesses that I identified, and you’re right, it could be the Achilles heal of the team (the team I built).
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Shero isn’t going to trade Malkin. But if he was going to and this was the offer..
No, I wouldn’t trade Atlas for Geno. I think Geno would have similar production to Vanek in this system with this team. Sure it’s harder to find a top line Center than it is to find a winger, I just think that Vanek is a better fit and meshes better with this team. Atlas has matured and become a leader. I think he builds on this past season and carries the team on his back.
Also, My Vanek slug jersey is undefeated, why would we want to mess with that.
"If we needed any more motivation to win a Cup sooner than later, we've got one now," Black said. "I really want to listen to the game that RJ calls when he finally gets to shout out, 'Buffalo wins the Stanley Cup.'"
by FloridaBuffalo on Jul 6, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, My Vanek slug jersey is undefeated, why would we want to mess with that.
Solid point. Discussion over. :)
"We’re gonna win the Stanley Cup. Then, you know what, we’re gonna win it again,"
-Terry Pegula
Reply fail...
Meant to go on FloridaBuffalo comment above.
"We’re gonna win the Stanley Cup. Then, you know what, we’re gonna win it again,"
-Terry Pegula
A philosophical difference
Why should Buffalo feel as though the trade hurts? You say this in the original post and again in the comments. To feel as if the trade hurts long term or short term I get, so long as it helps the other. However, that is only to say that the trade hurting in one limited area is okay, not that it is a must. My feeling is that the trade should make the team better. Overall, I feel like the lack of depth at forward in your scenario would hurt the team up until the deadline, while the lack of depth at defense past the deadline. Since the lockout our second most consistent strength has been depth (Miller being the first). While Stastny may be an upgrade over Roy, he is not a tremendously better player. Roy had 35 points in 35 games last season. Stastny had 57 in 74. Roy would have needed to put up 22 points in 39 games to match that total. While that is a small sample size, it is also the most recent one. The previous season they had similar number of games played, and Stastny had significantly more assists than Roy. It is my opinion, that even using that year and even assuming that Stastny sees a small increase in production due to playing with Vanek, the loss of Ennis and Hecht offsets whatever gains we might see by adding Stastny.
On a related note, I don’t get the whole idea of getting rid of Ennis. True, Boston was a big, physical team who won the cup. But people thought the game was trending towards a physical game when Anaheim won the cup, and then three faster, skating teams won the cup, 2 over each other and one over a bruising Flyers team. Last year people wondered how much a marquee goaltender was worth and then you have Luongo of the highest goalie salary against Vezina and Conn Smythe winning Tim Thomas. Size isn’t a bad thing, but it isn’t as important as being a good hockey player.
I also don’t get your point about skating ability. Stastny is a good skater, but the guys we replace hecht and Ennis with aren’t, so how do we maintain overall skating ability? If we lose a good skater and add a good skater, then lose another good skater and another ok skater and replace them both with less good skaters, then unless that good skater we acquired is significantly better than the one we lost, how did we maintain our mobility?
As has been previously stated, by myself and others, I find the likelihood of Shero trading Staal quite low unless circumstances force his hand or he is given an irrational offer (Myers, Roy, Ennis and a 1st should be sufficiently over the top).
As for other options, as some have pointed out Joe Pavelski might not be untouchable, and I’d be rather interested in Dubinsky if the Rangers walk away from an arbitration deal. Dubinsky would cost money and cap space, so we would have to move someone, and I’d imagine that the Sharks would want a top 6 wing and maybe defensive depth. The costs might be too high, and the Rangers may be able to keep Dubinsky, but I think those options are at least as worthy of thought as Stastny.
by Hopefulcynic on Jul 6, 2011 7:54 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Good post
Stastny vs. Roy: I posted above that Stastny’s assist to game ration was higher than Roy’s. And Roy, in general, has played with a better team over the past 4-5 years.
Trading Ennis is in line with the “you can’t get something for nothing.” Trading for a first-line center isn’t going to happen by trading trash. Ennis is a very good young player, but acquiring Stastny (or Spezza, Stamkos, etc) is going to cost something. In my scenario, the cost was Ennis.
I don’t think the skating dynamic adds up mathematically, eg: one great skater vs. two, etc. The team is trading Ennis and Roy in this scenario for Stastny, and already adding Leino to the top 6. So it’s roughly a push.
I’m not tied to Stastny, and I think I laid out why he’d be my target. But I wouldn’t rule out any of the centers you listed, or even those that I discounted (Spezza, Stamkos, Brassard).
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
I saw the bit about assist:game ration, but that was career. If we limit it to last year, Roy had better numbers. (I’m not just going to look at assists. In the extreme case, consider a center who has 15 more assists but 20 fewer goals. I’d rather have more goals, regardless of whether they’re scored by Roy, Vanek, Stastny or Jhonas Enroth. Ok, to be fair, I’ll take 5 fewer goals if 5 of them are scored by Enroth). Now, which sample size is better is debateable. I’m not saying that Roy is flat out better than Stastny, but I am saying that he might be, and that at the very leas the other losses more than compensate for any gains.
I agree that you can’t get something for nothing, but I don’t think that the difference between Roy and Stastny merits giving up Ennis. I think Ennis is a top 6 NHL forward. Is he tradeable? Of course, but you have us getting rid of two 20 goal scorers on reasonable contracts, plus a veteran depth forward (albeit on a bad contract, though I am honestly convinced that Pegula doesn’t care and will bury salary in the minors) and an unspecified pick. If I only get one body in return, it needs to be elite.
Sounds to me like you’re focused on the top 6. If that was your intention, then yes, our top 6 does maintain its mobility. Past that things get squishy. Not necessarily wrong, just the reasoning seems to be all about judgments of an aggregate with no specifics to turn to.
The bit about Dubinsky and Pavelski wasn’t meant as a big deal. You used the phrase “various centers” and these are two centers who you didn’t touch on who I think might be viable alternatives. I don’t think Dubinsky even was an alternative when you posted, since I didn’t think he was attainable until he filed for arbitration. It was more meant as an afterthought in case people wanted to discuss it.
by Hopefulcynic on Jul 6, 2011 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
2 quick adds
First, this has been a really, really great discussion. It has led to a lot of passion and information and that’s what a good discussion should do, in my opinion. Kudos to Der Jager for not only starting the talks, but keeping them going in a positive manner.
I just wanted to add that in the discussion on Boston and their physical play that while I agree that they are big and physical, and I also agree that the league is going towards bigger, physical players, I am not sure that I agree that this translates to “shutting down” opposing players as much as having a great goalie. Thomas played out of his mind all season and then especially in the playoffs. He faced the most shots in the league (in both the regular season and playoffs) averaging almost 33 shots a game if you add the playoffs and regular season together. His .938 Save Percentage over the course of the regular season is a full .016 points better than his NHL career average. I think the real abnormality when it comes to Boston is that their big, physical players were getting beaten by opponents and Thomas was saving them pretty often. I would love to look at quality chances (stats there are weak) versus shots on goal to have a better determination of this, but from the games I watched it appeared, to me at least, that the reason they hung around in each of their series was more because of Thomas then it was due to their style of play.
"Slide DiMaggio, slide!" "Hey, my name isn't DiMaggio, my name is mm..mmmm...mmm....mud."
Thomas gets too much credit for what Chara, Seindenberg, and Claude Julien do.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
Really?!
Give the man his due! He was the best goalie hands down in the regular season and Playoffs. If anything he should get more credit for Chara consistently getting deked by smaller, quicker players (which is just about everyone) and giving up opportunities! And trust me, it pains me to give anyone wearing a B on their sweater their due!! Thomas deserves it however.
Lot of good points/counterpoints in here. Rec'd.
As for comparing Roy vs Stastny: I feel like evaluating Roy on his stats alone leads to a conclusion that he is more valuable to the team than he really may be. But obviously, this is difficult to prove or argue, considering stats are the best way to compare players and impact on a team. It is my opinion, that if you could somehow assign a value to intangibles such as leadership, “buying into the system”, making others around you better, physical play, clutch play, etc, Roy would be dragged down by such things….BUT, obviously from the responses above, I may not be the first person to hold such an opinion…and others may be quite sick of such discussion.
SO, I would like to discuss something a little more tangible. Did this community discuss at all the fact that the Sabres “turning the season around” last year just happened to coincide with Derek Roy getting injured? I know that this was discussed a bit on local radio….but I find it really interesting. Namely, the phenominem that a team could play better even though (or maybe “because of”) thier leading scorer coming out of the lineup? Kind of like the Bill SImmons (the Sports Guy) “Ewing Theory”….that teams that lose their best player play better the next year for some reason.
I don’t know….if this has already been discussed in detail, than I apologize for rehashing an old event….but I can’t help but believe that the team practically turning from “not close to making the playoffs” to being the “hottest team the second half of the year” once Derek Roy went down was no coincidence at all….
"WHEN THE WAGON BLASTER TAKES OFF dont try to get in. THE SPACESES ARE LIMITED FOR WINNING ATTITUDE GODZILLA IS COMING GET READY" - abayarde
by StroudFanClub on Jul 6, 2011 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
The Ewing Theory is just another form of the "blame the star" syndrome, IMO.
You can see the same thing with David Wright and Carlos Beltran and a large portion of Mets fans. You don’t become a better team when you take away one of your best players. Correlation ≠ causation. Roy’s injury just coincided with Vanek going Atlas and Gerbe and Sekera finding their NHL games.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
and you don’t know what goes on in the Locker room. Maybe the injury to Roy became a rallying event for the team and they finally started putting it together. Sometimes in life it takes a major event for light bulbs to turn on and for people to get it. This team IS better with Derek Roy than it is without Derek Roy. You can also factor in the Pegula Effect.
"If we needed any more motivation to win a Cup sooner than later, we've got one now," Black said. "I really want to listen to the game that RJ calls when he finally gets to shout out, 'Buffalo wins the Stanley Cup.'"
by FloridaBuffalo on Jul 6, 2011 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Myers too
I think Myers really turned it around 2nd half of the season as well.
by buffaloparks on Jul 7, 2011 2:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
OK, This isn’t intended to sound argumentative or “mean spirited” or negative at all. But, can somebody PLEASE explain to me, with examples, WHY Roy is not a team player, not a leader, why do you think he doesn’t buy into the system?
As far as being physical or soft? He isn’t the most physical guy, of course, but it’s not his job to be. He plays a skill role and he plays it well, he doesn’t avoid contact, he’s about as physical as you could expect for a guy in his role.
I’m sorry but all the talk of Roy being a cancer and not playing with the team just screams bullshit to me. I don’t see it. If you do, that’s fine, I would just like some explanations and examples because it seems like the majority of this board shares your views.
by JSCoope on Jul 6, 2011 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's tough to say for sure why Derek Roy is considered lacking in all of those areas
I think it’s mostly rumor, hearsay, and things that aren’t said about him that imply such things.
Like, for example, Bulldog of the WGR550 afternoon show makes it very open his disdain for Derek Roy. Bulldog will often cite hearing inside information about Roy’s partying ways, his difficulty conforming to Lindy’s system, and his lack of physical play as reasons for openly disliking him and wanting him gone. Admittedly, Bulldog is often critical of “finesse” type players, while respecting the hard-working, tough guys, so take it with a grain of salt, although also know that Bulldog says the stories he could tell about Roy are too numerous to recount fully.
Also, Paul Hamilton, WGR550’s reporter that covers the Bills and Sabres and in my opinion is pretty fair and balanced in his opinion of the players he covers, has never mentioned anything about Derek Roy being a “leader in the room”….in fact, Paul Hamilton has gone on record numerous times saying the Sabres lacked real leadership after the Drury/Briere fiasco. Derek Roy is NEVER mentioned in discussions about what players are vocal in the lockerroom, respected vets, or even just leading by example.
Also, rumors mid-season about a happening at Ryan Miller’s charity fashion show….where it was rumored that Connolly was punched in the face by Roy? I know an altercation was reported by Matt Barnaby via his twitter….but he took it back once the team said nothing of the like happened and that was not the reason why Connolly had a black eye and was out of practice for a few days. Just an example of another rumor involving Roy.
Again, nothing concrete, but how often do you really get concrete examples of guys being poor leaders, cancers in the lockerroom, or not playing within the system while the player is still with the team? Almost never….unless you are discussing T.O.
Anyone else want to chime in with specifics or backup my vague details and rumors?
"WHEN THE WAGON BLASTER TAKES OFF dont try to get in. THE SPACESES ARE LIMITED FOR WINNING ATTITUDE GODZILLA IS COMING GET READY" - abayarde
by StroudFanClub on Jul 6, 2011 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
One thing I've learned following the Mets so closely (the Mets - and Carlos Beltran in particular - being favorite whipping boys of many a main stream media personality)
is that MSM rumors and “stories” are almost always throughly colored by the reporters own biases to the point that they no longer hold water. Not living in Buffalo it’s hard to get a handle on some of this stuff.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
Found this quote interesting as well from the article posted just May 2010
http://www.diebytheblade.com/2010/5/29/1492894/derek-roy-2009-10-report-card
“I can see your reasoning concerning the letter but I’m in the “you have to earn it” camp. Given Roy’s penchant for taking shifts “off’ or seemingly only giving 90% some nights, I don’t think of him as the type who’d hear "you have to be a leader in order for this team to succeed" when he’s given an A. I think it sends a "oh, this is all I have to do to get a letter?" message, which feeds into his tendency to be complacent.
Long term, it might be best to take his letter away a la Vinny Lecavalier; besides I think we can all agree an A would look mighty nice on Grier and it would have to come from somewhere.”
- Ogre39666 June 1, 2010 1:09AM
Sorry, not trying to call you out or anything….just found it interesting, considering the conversation we are having.
Do you still feel the same way you did last year, or did Roy change your opinion of him this year?
"WHEN THE WAGON BLASTER TAKES OFF dont try to get in. THE SPACESES ARE LIMITED FOR WINNING ATTITUDE GODZILLA IS COMING GET READY" - abayarde
by StroudFanClub on Jul 6, 2011 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, not trying to call you out or anything…
Lies!
by TEMSON on Jul 6, 2011 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Haha, not really....Ogre hasn't been too vocal in this Roy conversation
I don’t think he’s been arguing that Roy is a leader….his comment only pertained to taking the media and their whipping boys with a grain of salt.
So I’m wondering where he does stand on the issue, that is all. : )
"WHEN THE WAGON BLASTER TAKES OFF dont try to get in. THE SPACESES ARE LIMITED FOR WINNING ATTITUDE GODZILLA IS COMING GET READY" - abayarde
by StroudFanClub on Jul 6, 2011 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough, I suppose.
Let me ask you this, though, since I have your attention. Don’t you think you’re expecting too much out of Roy? Not that he couldn’t be this perfect leader you’re looking for – but his contract is great and he does what he’s asked to do (score points and play in all situations (PK, PP, ES) relatively well). I would think people would want more from Pommers (with his much larger contract) or even Vanek (arguably the face of the franchise outside of Miller) before expecting more from Roy. This is the crux of the argument we’ve had here 1,000 times. If Roy is doing what he’s asked relatively well, does it really matter if he parties some (allegedly) and is not the best leader in the world (again, allegedly).
I think arguments saying he takes shifts off are much more valid, but I’m not convinced they’re accurate.
by TEMSON on Jul 6, 2011 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
^^ What Tems said
He does what he does, and does it well.
Every knock on Roy is simply speculation.
Sometimes it sounds like I am Derek Roy with the way I defend him, but I just don’t understand why he catches so much unwarranted flack. It’s not like we pay him insane money, his production exceeds his paycheck. He’s not a goon. He plays hard. He improves every year. He’s become one of our better 2-way players but doesn’t get the respect for it. He’s a damn good hockey player and I just don’t get the hate he receives.
Couldn’t agree more.
If the Sabres had strong leaders who could also score and play Center, than nobody would care that Derek Roy is a bit of a passive douche, as long as he put up his usual numbers. He’s just not that guy.
What the Sabres really need is a guy like Shane Doan. Preferably Shane Doan of 5 years ago, not that that’s possible. If that were the case, they’d have won a few cups by now, I believe.
Just for my own ability to get some of what I feel about the subject into a readible comment, I'll list some thoughts.
- That comment, if I remember the context correctly, was more about Roy being thrust into a leadership role sans Drury and Briere almost out of necessity. Someone had to wear an A and the way I read the situation was he was given it with an almost “hey, why not” attitude (not to say that Ruff doesn’t give thought to the process). That combined with IMO, not cementing himself as a leader (at least as far as us fans can tell) and not fully coming into his own in terms of his game, I believe lead to the “‘Oh, this is all I have to do to get a letter?’ message, which feeds into his tendency to be complacent” part. It wasn’t that he wasn’t capable of a leadership role, just I didn’t feel the timing was right.
- That comment was also over a year ago before he made what appeared to be a big step in 2011 both in terms of his game and his presence on the team – just like before last season I didn’t like the idea of Vanek wearing a letter. (Vanek by the way, would be my choice for captain next season. Prior to last year I worried almost the opposite of a Roy-type situation where Vanek would let his game get dragged down by the responsibility of a letter.)
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
Also, without the context, what I wrote can seem like I'm saying something I'm not.
This is what I was directly responding to (boldening mine):
I like that they gave him an "A" and I like him to have it fulltime. Not that he’s truly earned it but because I think he’s shirked the responsibility that comes with his talent long enough. Giving him an "A" and saying "you have to be a leader in order for this team to succeed" may be the best thing for him. If he doesn’t respond to that then you probably have to trade him.
by Tsujimoto on May 30, 2010 8:26 PM EDT
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
here is the story about the charity event altercation:
"WHEN THE WAGON BLASTER TAKES OFF dont try to get in. THE SPACESES ARE LIMITED FOR WINNING ATTITUDE GODZILLA IS COMING GET READY" - abayarde
by StroudFanClub on Jul 6, 2011 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
So you don’t watch the Sabres at all then? Can’t you watch the game and determine your own opinions.
1) WGR is notorious for bullshit. Personally I’ve never listened to it (I don’t listen to the radio except when I’m in the gym) but when DBTB links to a WGR article 9 times out of 10 it’s terribly biased without reason.
2) The Connolly black eye incident was because Connolly was rehearsing some kind of dance move or something for Miller’s show and fell down. He got a black eye. That was cleared up like a week later. Don’t know why it took so long but from the fact that Lindy let out a big smile when he everybody was asking “what happened to Tim” after it first happened it’s pretty obvious that it wasn’t a big deal, certainly not on the level a punch up between teammates.
3) So these WGR guys have admitted to a personal dislike of Roy? So wouldn’t it make sense for them to make some things up or at least embellish a few things? Maybe the saw Roy having a beer one day and then they relay that as Roy being drunk out of his mind and hitting on 16 year old girls while he snorts coke off the bar.
4) As for his leadership? Myers hasn’t shown leadership, Vanek hadn’t until this past year. Biron never did. Yet they are all fan favourites. So IF you really beleive whatever is said about Roy’s lack of leadership (personally, I’ve said it a bunch of times before, but NONE of us know who is or isn’t a good leader because we aren’t in the locker room. It’s all speculation. Roy has worn the C before (when they rotated it) and is an Alternate always. They don’t give that to you simply because you’re on the first line. You need to earn it in some capacity. He might be the best leader in the group. He might be the worst. He’s being paid to play hockey, not pump guys up. That’s one of those intangible things that is a bonus, in my opinion you don’t pay a guy simply to be a leader otherwise Hitler would’ve played pro sports.
by JSCoope on Jul 6, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, how about an recent article from this very website?
http://www.diebytheblade.com/2010/5/29/1492894/derek-roy-2009-10-report-card
Quotes included in article pertaining to the topic at hand:
“Introduction: Derek Roy turned in his typical 60-70 point season, earned an “A” for half the year, and was a player that Lindy Ruff threw in to every type of on-ice situation. However, somewhere along the line his tendency to “not try very hard” blew up and this offseason he seems to be one of the poster boys for the team’s lack of heart and effort."
“Thumbs Down: Roy has never been able to shake that “frat boy” image that’s stuck with him over the past few years, given his boyish good looks and numerous appearances on Chippewa after weekend games. His lack of effort at times is disturbing, and does nothing to shake that immature image. He is prone to giveaways, earning him the nickname “The Tony Lydman of Forwards”."
“Points of Interest: Will Roy ever mature into the leader we’d all like him to be? Is his cap-friendly contract worth more in a trade than on this team?”
These observations were written about Roy after just the 2009-2010 season, and by a source I would hope you at least consider “unbiased”. Add in the fact that the Sabres seemed to play much better with Roy out of the lineup last year, and there you go….
"WHEN THE WAGON BLASTER TAKES OFF dont try to get in. THE SPACESES ARE LIMITED FOR WINNING ATTITUDE GODZILLA IS COMING GET READY" - abayarde
by StroudFanClub on Jul 6, 2011 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
But why do you keep quoting things from a year ago? Sure, he’s not exactly Nik Lidstrom, but I think most of us would agree that he’s matured a lot in the past season, shortened though it was, at least by the look test. The fact alone that he was working hard on conditioning so that he could come back as soon as the injury permitted and not vegging out with the X-Box & Doritos for his convalescence points to a dedication & work ethic we hadn’t seen before.
I was asked to explain why I hold the opinion I do of Roy
And why others may share that opinion. So I am giving examples.
And like I said before, trying to find legit sources willing to come out and verify that a certain player still with the team is not a good leader, or is not a good teammate, or not playing within the system is VERY difficult to find. Guys just arent willing to sell out teammates like that. So many of my examples are unsubstaniated or older in nature. Just how it goes I guess.
"WHEN THE WAGON BLASTER TAKES OFF dont try to get in. THE SPACESES ARE LIMITED FOR WINNING ATTITUDE GODZILLA IS COMING GET READY" - abayarde
by StroudFanClub on Jul 6, 2011 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right
I was just asking why people think the way they do about Roy. And you did give examples. So for that, thanks. I never realized that WGR had it in for him, and given that a lot of Buffalo listen to WGR it explains how these kind of “opinions” travel.
I still don’t see any of these examples as being valid though.
It's totally irrelevant
You don’t trade a position of need just because you think the best guy on your team who plays that position is a douche. Half the NHL are douches who take shifts off. Seriously. Browse some of the other NHL SBNation sites, and you’ll see that almost everyone has a Derek Roy. Having a guy like him on your team isn’t a problem as long as you have, say, another high caliber center. That’s what the Sabres need, and getting rid of Derek Roy isn’t really the answer.
1) Wow. That’s the first time I’ve ever heard the “Toni Lydman of Forwards” thing. So I hardly think he’s “earned the nickname” If I never heard it before.
2) Some guy on the internet says he’s made “numerous appearances” on chippewa. Oh noes!!! A male in his 20’s was on a street that has nightclubs!?!
Again, this is all speculation. People are inferring he is getting drunk and acting a douche. If somebody saw Miller downtown they’d all be offering to buy him a beer and telling him how awesome he is. And don’t pretend Miller has never been spotted out at a bar. But for some reason when it’s Roy everybody see’s it as a terrible immature guy who can’t hold his liquor.
His lack of effort at times? I don’t see that. Whoever posted that comment obviously does. Oh well, I disagree.
That was written 2 years ago.
His game and presence on the team has change drastically if you ask me.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
NOT written 2 years ago: May 2010. exactly 13 months ago.
"WHEN THE WAGON BLASTER TAKES OFF dont try to get in. THE SPACESES ARE LIMITED FOR WINNING ATTITUDE GODZILLA IS COMING GET READY" - abayarde
by StroudFanClub on Jul 7, 2011 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, years should have been seasons.
That was about not this past season, but the season before. His game and presence on the team has changed drastically if you ask me.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
To be sure, I LIKE liking the guys on the team I root for
I don’t like Derek Roy. Oh, he’s smug, obnoxious, immature, kind of dumb – but really, I don’t have a great reason for it other than that’s how I feel. But I absolutely want him on this team. On the other hand, I want to marry Paul Gaustad (trust me, we all do), but if the Sabres had to lose him, that would be okay, so long as they didn’t mind never winning a faceoff ever again.
it was rumored that Connolly was punched in the face by Roy?
Even if – BIG IF – it was true, who the hell cares?
Yeah!
I mean, who wouldn’t want to punch Timmy in the face?! Especially now that he’s a Leaf!!
I kid!! I kid!!!
What I’ve heard from reporters who are in the locker room is that they get the sense that Roy isn’t great in the locker room. He’s not horrible either. The other guys like him.But I’ve heard that Roy’s drive to win is say, somewhat less than Ryan Miller, though not nonexistent. Just a bit more easy going. You can sort of read in between the lines of things Miller has said.
OK
But Miller is a competitive guy.
Not every pro athlete is as intense and competition driven as a Miller, Crosby, Jordan or Kobe type of player.
I don’t think that’s a huge problem. He obviously wants to win or he wouldn’t be improving, he wouldn’t still be in the league, he probably wouldn’t have even made it to the league if he didn’t care about winning. It would be awesome if everybody on the team had the same intense desire to win as Miller does, but that’s just not realistic, it doesn’t mean they don’t want to win they just don’t have the extra gear that a guy like Gretzky had.
Not being on par with Miller's drive to win (or at least being able to vocalize it) is something I suspect Roy shares with a lot of players league wide.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
Good point
I think there’s a lot more that factors into this, though. Lots of younger Sabres stepped up their game in the second half of the season, and as mentioned below, Vanek became the primary playmaker.
But it’s worth noting that the Sabres were capable of being a better team with Roy altogether. Which means that Roy coming back to the team isn’t essential for the team’s success. Especially if we consider that Leino replaces Connolly at center. Granted, I don’t want Boyes back at center nor do I like Hecht at center. But if Roy suddenly disappeared the Sabres overall are better than the playoff team from last year.
This doesn’t make a Roy trade likely, but including him in a trade for a #1 center like Stastny, Stamkos, or Spezza is possible in that light.
Grading the team, start with the playoff team, swap Connolly for Leino, swap Butler for Regehr, and then add whoever Roy brings in a trade. It’s a better team.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
By that logic
Think of a healthy Roy returning to the lineup as a trade. Say Roy had been playing for the Oilers all last year and we just signed him to a deal, he is an incoming 1/2 center. Isn’t that a good thing?
If Brad Boyes didn't work at Center
even though it’s supposedly his natural position that he played in juniors, what makes anybody think that Ville Leino will work at Center even though almost the exact same thing is true?
It didn't really happen like that
It wasn’t a simple cause and effect relationship that Roy going down made the team better. The team had already started to turn it around when Roy went down.
Potentially
Most teams that lose their number 1 center at any point experience a downturn. Buffalo didn’t experience that.
That may also be because Buffalo doesn’t have a #1 center; I think Roy is a good 2nd link center.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
by Der Jaeger on Jul 7, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
Just like Pittsburgh last year. Turned out really horribly for them too.
You can’t prove a point by using one other team, like Pittsburgh, that had a similar experience.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Okay
How about Marc Savard and Patrice Bergeron? They were out a bunch last year too.
I plan to get back to this
Going to take some research that I don’t have time for right now. Not ignoring your point.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
You’ve been doing that with your “NHL trending toward bigger players because of Bruins” argument. It’s almost the exact same thing.
I tried this.
He’ll just say your “confusing your argument” – because, you know, he knows what your argument is.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
Too many alternatives
As Ogre and DJ have touched on.
Yes, the team turned around right about the time Roy went down. But that was also just as Stafford started finding his stride, about the time Pegula buying the franchise started to seem real, and was also a decent way into a season for a team starting a lot of young players. Off the top of my head, wasn’t that about the time Myers (our top defenceman) started to put his game without Tallinder together?
I’m not saying that Roy is a fantastic leader, but that these two events coinciding is weak evidence. It might not be a coincidence, but given all the other factors, it might have been one.
by Hopefulcynic on Jul 6, 2011 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
It was about the time a lot of guys found their game.
Myers, Gerbe, Sekera, Niedermayer eventually, Bulter eventually. Vanek going into Atlas mode. It was also the point where Leopold started to come back down to earth if memory serves.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
Look for this trade
Stastny goes to the Sabres
Avs get Enroth Sakera prospect and draft choice
Giving up Enroth would, in my mind, be a grave error. For how long have we been hoping for a number 2 goalie that Lindy actually trusts? 5+ years?
Would you really prioritize #2 goalie over a #1 center?
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
by Der Jaeger on Jul 7, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
While this thread still has some people's attention
has anyone else noticed the improvement in graphics and backgrounds on the Sabres website? I think it looks so much better than before. Even the interwebs isn’t immune to the Pegula effect.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
Depends on the Center
Again, Stastny just isn’t worth it to give up so much in my opinion. Goaltenders during the year directly impact wins a hell of a lot more than Centers do usually. You can’t tell me the Sabres would have made the playoffs last year had Lalime been the backup. And adding a veteran to backup means that you’re basically adding either a scrub or a guy who will command even more money, in all likelihood, to a franchise that’s already right up against the cap. Enroth has proven up to the task of spelling Miller and getting wins. Given the goalie situation post-Marty Biron, that is not something I think most Sabres fans would take for granted.
The Sabres likely wouldn’t have made the playoffs without Enroth. If an Enroth-Stastny based trade was made prior to the deadline, Buffalo isn’t even in that position, and could’ve afforded to get by with Lalime.
- center trumps #2 goalie on every team, every year (unless that team is the 90’s Devils).
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Just not true
A backup goalie has a lot more to do with determining how a season goes than any given Center. Centers can’t win games by themselves. If the Sabres had to get by with Lalime and had Stastny, I would not feel good about the upcoming season.
I disagree with both of you
It isn’t this cut and dry one business where one is always more important than the other. Given Hasek or Brodeur in their primes, I can see a backup goalie not making much difference. After all, he’s playing like 6 games, tops. And if the Center is the difference between having Tim Connolly as your top center and Pavel Datsuyk as your top center, then that might make more difference than whether it’s Enroth or Conklin backing up Miller. The difference between Roy and Stastny, however, is much smaller than the difference between Connolly and Datsuyk.
On the other hand, while it is true that Centers never win games on their own, when was the last time a goaltender had more goals than the opposing team? Goaltenders can steal games, only in the sense that they can keep a team in a game that they deserved to lose, and forwards who shine can do the same thing.
by Hopefulcynic on Jul 14, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
My point is Miller isn’t Hasek, Brodeur, or even Lundqvist for that matter, despite how much Lindy might want him to be. He has show that bad things happen when he’s asked to play that many games in the season. Enroth should be playing at least 10 games. That’s 20 points. You’d like for that not to matter ideally, but often it does. And no, Enroth isn’t going to win games by himself. It’s just that since Biron, our backup goalies have been so shitty, that very frequently that poor goaltending has cost the Sabres.
I actually liked Conklin when he played for the Sabres (albeit two games) but I’m not sure how Miller felt about him. Miller seems to prefer jolly French Canadian backups that are of no threat to him. I’m mostly kidding. My point is that I think we have a good situation with Enroth. Maybe he gets figured out by most shooters with time. Maybe he is too small. I’m just willing to ride that train until we come to that point.
True
But if my choice is:
A.) Roy, Enroth, Hecht
B.) Stastny, Lalime
I take choice B. Stastny is a true PPG center. Roy is very good, but I think he’s a good second line center.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Paul Stastny has only once reached the point per game mark and that was in 07-08 where he had 71 points in 66 games. All other seasons he has been below a point per game. Roy now has two seasons (as a first line center) where he has reached the point per game mark. Granted I’m counting last seasons, which was short. Still…
Somewhat off topic… you have said Stastny is better because his assists ratio is higher than Roy’s but you seem to always gloss over the fact that assists are a lot easier to get than goals. If two players are producing a similar number of points and one player consistently has more goals than assists, I want that player versus the one who’s points are padded with more assists pretty much 100% of the time. Assists don’t win you games, goals do.
DJ is talking about having Stastny because his assists are higher, meaning he is a playmaker who will fit better with Vanek than Roy does. I don’t agree with him, but that’s the gist of why he was commenting on the higher assist ratios.
Does anybody know somewhere that you can view primary vs secondary assist numbers?
Except he is also saying this
Stastny is a true PPG center. Roy is very good, but I think he’s a good second line center.
when the numbers say otherwise
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
Just to add to what clownfat stated since advanced stats seem to like Stastny
Roy has averaged 7.12 Point Shares for the last 5 seasons (not including last season) and his peak was 9.5 in 07/08. Stastny has averaged 6.54 Point Shares per season for the last 5 seasons and his peak was 8.5 in 07/08. Even if you correct for Stastny’s 08/09 season where he only played in 45 games, he has averaged 6.86 Point Shares per season. Roy was on pace for about 7.4 this past year (3.5 Point Shares in just 35 games played); Stastny was only worth 5.6 Point Shares in 74 games played.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
And Stastny has averaged a minute more ATOI per season than Roy for his career.
20:12 versus 19:03.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
Read below
Effective enough backing my point?
What’s your counter?
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Stastny have played in 5 seasons, four of which can be considered full. He his the PPG mark in 07-08, as you point out. He scored 78 points in 82 games in 06-07, and 79 points in 81 games in 09-10. Strictly statistically, he’s only has one PPG season, but he was off by a combined six points in two other seasons, essentially being PPG seasons. 3 of 5 seasons PPG.
Roy has played seven seasons, five of which can be considered full. He’s hit the PPG mark strictly twice, in 07-08 and last season, which was cut short. In his other five seasons, his closest to PPG was off by 11 points, not really close enough to call as a PPG season. 2 of seven seasons PPG.
Roy has 144 goals in 469 games, scoring once every 3.25 games, or roughly a tad better than one goal every ten periods. Stastny has 105 goals in 348 games, or one goal every 3.31 games, almost exactly one goal every ten periods.
I’ll take Stastny, who has a higher ratio of PPG seasons to NHL seasons, a better assist per game ratio, and puts the puck in the net in a similar fashion to Roy.
Despite being questioned if I backed my points effectively higher on this thread, these are the facts. I’ve maintained that Stastny is a true #1 center that scores at a PPG clip, and that Roy is a good/great #2 center. Stastny is a PPG center 60% of his seasons, scores at the same rate as Roy, and racks up more assists.
I’m not sure how much more effectively I can back this point. My opinions of trades may be off, but the stats bear out that Stastny is better option at center than Roy.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Sure, lump in all of Roy’s years together and he only goes along at just above .5 points per game… but now you’re comparing Roy as a third, second and first liner to Stastny who I think has always been on the first line. I could be wrong about that second point… I haven’t watched enough of the Avelanche for sure. His first year TOI is a bit lower than the last four years so I’ll ignore it for these stats… which give us just the last four season for either player. If you have an issue with that I’ll just say this… comparing 5 years of Stastny to 4 years of Roy (as the top line center) Roy still wins the ppg stat (though barely), but that seems weird to compare more years for one player to another so…
If you only look at the last four seasons, when Roy was the top line center, he produces at a pace of .927 points per game while Stastny in those same seasons produces at .913 points per game.
The last four years Roy has played in 275 games while Stastny has played in 266 games so these number are very similar in terms of games played, and since we are breaking down to ppg that matters very little. It is also interesting to note, that in those four seasons Stastny had 7 more assists than Derek Roy. Seven, over four seasons… not exactly blowing Roy out of the water in terms of setting up his line mates.
Basically, my complaint with your stats comparison is you include years for Roy where he wasn’t getting top line minutes and not playing with top line talent. It is bound to lower his numbers…
Please don’t include me in this flame war at all, I haven’t read every comment on this article (though I did read most) and I’m not interested in going there. I simply just do not agree that Stastny is actually a better top line center at this point in time and the above stats work towards why I think that. Maybe Roy should have been better for his first few years in the league but, uh… who cares? I only care about the time he has had as Buffalo’s top line center, and as such, he has done quite well.
by clownfat on Jul 16, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I’m comparing Roy as a third line center to Stastny. The “third line” argument holds little water, because the Buffalo team that Roy played 3C has 3 scoring lines that Ruff rolled. And it’s not like Roy was playing with typical third line wingers. He had Vanek, who was a 30 goals scorer, and Afinogenov, who had 73 and 61 points playing as Roy’s RW. That’s not typical thrd line numbers.
In Stastny’s first season, he wasn’t the 1st line center. Joe Sakic was. Sakic scored 100 points that year, with the team’s best winger, Hejduk, playing on his line. Stastny was playing with Brunette and Wolski. Sure, he got some powerplay time with Sakic, but Stastny for sure was the second fiddle to Sakic and put up great numbers.
So we’re comparing Stastny on the second line plaing with Brunette and Wolski, to Roy playing on the third line with Vanek and Afinogenov. I’d say that’s fair.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
You might be right about it being fair – but the bottom line is I don’t care if Roy sucked when he was 14. I don’t care if he sucked in juniors. I don’t care if he sucked his first year in the NHL. I care how he’s playing now – and I think it’s pretty clear that over the last 3-4 years Roy’s numbers are extremely comparable to Stastny’s, so I think any argument that one is considerably better than the other holds no weight. Maybe Stastny adjusted to the NHL game quicker, that doesn’t help me win a cup next year any more. Stastny has a few more assists than Roy, Roy has a slightly higher PPG. The differences are negligible. The only real difference I can tell between them is that Stastny’s contract pays him 2+ million more than Roy’s – and I don’t see that helping us win a cup at all.
I’d love to have them both – but I don’t think trading Roy for Stastny is going to improve our team much, even if Vanek would theoretically possibly play better with Stastny (which I’m not convinced of).
by TEMSON on Jul 17, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
All I’m comparing, as per your information that Stastny was on the second line his first year (as I sort of suspected), is the two players stats when they played center on the first line. Please explain the importance of their stats playing on other lines regarding their ability to handle top line minutes as a center. I’m not understanding how that makes any sense at all. We are discussing who is a better top line center, and stats they managed when they played a different role, to me, mean very little. It isn’t like we are lacking for stats they got as top line centers. In fact, they have a very similar number of games played in that position, and over the same exact seasons, so even changes in the way the game was called over the years won’t skew the stats. Basically, you have to reach back to 6 or 7 seasons ago in order to pull down Roy’s stats. You really think that matters now? If so, please explain how. Some players just take longer to develop, but that doesn’t make them lesser players.
The problem with your analysis is that it’s too objective and hockey is such a subjective game. It’s not freaking baseball. Stats just don’t mean as much. Sure Stastny played with Sakic – don’t you think that would help his game? Roy wasn’t on a team with huge superstars that the other team had to plan for and devote to stopping. Don’t you think that helped Stastny put up his numbers?
I disagree
I’d rather have Stastny with Lalime as the back-up. I think a PPG center is going to win more games in the end. It would take forever to prove in terms of researching past years, and I don’t have time now, so for now that’s my opinion.
No doubt, Lalime will lose some games, but less than Stastny will help win, IMO.
It won’t matter much now, since the Avs don’t need Enroth anymore.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
This has to be a fanpost comment record
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
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